Well, the suggestions and good intention are appreciated. Jacobite priests taking part in these sacraments along with our priests is already in practice.We shall not constrain it to Marriage and Funeral, Let there be freedom for laity to invite any Jacobite priests or Bishops. I am sure it will be welcomed by wider section of church and will be a success. 66 Metrolpolitans and thousands of priests entering each others territory - Would clergy welcome it?..... I heard of brain drain ......but here ....MONEY DRAIN!!.
We should not jump into conclusion without clealy studying the legal implications of inviting Jacobite priests to lead our worship. In the past we have had bitter experiences.
The Jacobite leaders survive by false campaigns and misleading ordinary innocent people who do not have much role in their leadership. But the effect is on the wane and the number of faithful who trust them has drastically fallen. I think we need to show more patience and let the wounds to be healed naturally.
The legal battles cannot go on for ever and we will see that people themselves calling for UNITY in the near future. Fearing a UNITY, Jacobite leades have upped their clamour for division. They know any delay can cause accceptance of the Orthodox vision for Church Unity.
Due to Malankara Varghese murder case Jacobite leaders are finding it more difficult to get 'CHAVERS'. Faithful who used to believe Jacobite leadership blindly are deserting them now. This was clearly evident in the Jacobite leader's call for 'the biggest ever gathering' resuling in the gathering of just around 2000 people. Peope are losing confidence in his leadership. They know HB's magic doesn't work anymore!. PEOPLE WANT PEACE!
Meanwhile HH Patriarch has clipped Jacobite leader's wings by taking away archdioces like USA, Europe and Gulf from him. So the are now two groups in US - Metran kakshi (suporitng HB Thomas I) and Patriarch kakshi (supporing HH Patriarch). In the archdioces of malankara too groupism wil worsen in the near future.
SO THE BEST STRATEGY WOULD BE TO WAIT AND WATCH PEACEFULLY. Please remember that it is in our advantage to delay the process.
Dear All Unity between MOSCand JSOC at present is diificult!However we can achieve peace and harmony if the two heirarchy make possible changes in their attitude as well as ending disputed churches or wrangles in court by bilatteral dicussions between two hierarchy of two factions in the true Spirit of God!
Before this CBM can happen Georgy .. can iask a few questions?
1) Whats the official name of the faction headed by Baselios Mar Thoma Paulose II? one official name out of the many would be deeply welcomed
2) EARLIEST RECORDED EVIDENCE of St Thomas Throne in India in the Malnkara Church
3) Does your Church have an official Bible ( Old and New Testament) for the faithful or should they adhere to the Syriac Orthodox Church's Bible translated into malayalam by Most Rev Curien Cor Episcopa
4)Dialogues to remove the "Excommunication" of the IOC Priests. Remember the tablitha is very important during the Celebration of Holy Qurbana
5) Is HH Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas , Patriach of Antioch and Supreme Head of the Universal Syriac Orthodox Church and seated on the See of St Peter the official Supreme Head of IOC?
6)as for CBM can cases filed against the Syriac Orthodox Church in the various Disputed Churches be removed or closed?
7) Who consecrated Vattasseril as Bishop in Jerusalem? Was he the Canonical Patriach of Antioch. If so what was his name?
8)The Present Patriach Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas has on record stated he is willing to accept IOC as a Sister Church. Why cant IOC respond to that in a favourable manner?
9) Declaration of Vattasseril as a saint unilaterally has put unremovable blocks for re unification taking into account his activities against the Syriac Orthodox Church
10) Sister Churches can hold dialogues and talks on intercommunion. Isn that an advantage for peace efforts?
11) Why doesnt the Catholicoses of Devalokam not put the Official name of the Church in their respective Letter Heads?
12) Are any of written evidences of Mor Augen Late Catholicose ever valid in Church History?
Awaiting your response and praying that this be posted in the comment
DEAR DIPU, UNLIKE THE CHURCH HEADED BY THE SYRIAN PATRIARCH HAS MANY NAMES LIKE UNIVERSAL SYRIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH,SYRIAC ORTHODOX CHURCH,JACOBITE SYRIAN CHURCH,MALANKARA JACOBITE SYRIAN CHURCH(EVEN THOUGH MALANKARA WAS STRIPPED OFF IN 2002 BY THOMAS BAVA),MALANKARA JACOBITE SYRIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH ETC.,THE REAL MALANKARA CHURCH HEADED BY H.H.PAULOSE II HAS ONLY ONE OFFICIAL NAME' THE MALANKARA ORTHODOX SYRIAN CHURCH' WHICH IS CLEARLY MENTIONED IN THE 1934 CONSTITUTION.TO DISTINGUISH THE CHURCH FROM THE ANTIOCHEAN CHURCH NOW A DAYS THE CHURCH IS ALSO KNOWN AS THE INDIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH ESPECIALLY OUTSIDE INDIA AS THE MALANKARA CHURCH HAS GROWN AS A GLOBAL CHURCH. 2.THE PATRIARCH IS NOT THE SUPREME HEAD OF THE MALANKARA CHURCH.IF THERE IS A PATRIARCH ACCEPTED BY THE MALANKARA CHURCH AS PER THE CONDITIONS LAID OUT THE 1934 CONSTITUTION APPROVED BY THE SUPREME COURT,HE WILL BE CONSIDERED AS THE SPIRITUAL HEAD AS FIRST AMONG EQUALS ALONG WITH THE CATHOLICOSE. 3.THE PARTRIARCH'S PROPOSAL AS SISTER CHURCH IS MEANINGLESS AS THE MALANKARA CHURCH IS ALREADY A PARTNER IN THE ORIENTAL ORTHODOX FAMILY AS EQUAL PARTNER LIKE THE SYRIAN CHURCH.THE JACOBITE CHURCH IS NOT A MEMBER OF THE O.O FAMILY(INDEPENDENTLY). 4.THE BIBLE IS NOT WRITTEN IN SYRIAC LANGUAGE ORIGINALLY.IT WAS WRITTEN IN GREEK AND HEBREW.NOBODY CAN INVENT A DIFFERENT BIBLE DEVIATING FROM THE ORIGINAL TEXT.SOME OF YOUR OTHER QUESTIONS ARE IRRELEVANT TO DAY. THOMAS KUTTIKANDATHIL.
A few more questions to Georgy. May consider this as an addition to Dipu's questions. 1)Who spoke Syriac first in Kerala? 2)Who brought vestments that your priests are wearing? 3) Who taught you about Christ? 4) Who taught you about Canons? 5) Who taught you how to live in christian faith? 6) Who paid Airtickets for Bishops who came from Antioch? 7) Who spend money for building churches in Kerala? 8) Who gave the design for your churches? 9) Who gave you the prayers? 10) Who gave you all that you enjoy in your church today? Don't forget this is why we say A Ammaye maranallum Antiochyayee marakoolaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
One more thing Georgy. Is your faction a Christian Church. Look at our church, we have 'Christian' in our name. You people are confused with your name. Can you show the evidence of St.Thomas arrival in India like boarding pass issued or disembarkation card or passport etc. Which Bible you people follow. Do your church approve our Very Rev.Kuriyamparambil Kaniyan Korepiscopa's Bible? Do you know where you get the wood to make Tabeletha and who gave the measurements to make them? You people took lot of time to canonise Vattasseril Thirumeni, setting up committee etc. In our case, one Kalpana 2 minutes and we get one Saint. Why you people complicate things. Why can't you guys consider as we brothers and you as sister? You don't like being women. Isn't it. Remember HH Patriarch Zakka Iwas sitting on the original THRONE of St.Peter made by him. Pope Benedict sitting on duplicate chair. Which chair you approve? Did St.Thomas bring Throne to India. There is no evidence. Then how can you people sit on his throne?
Mr Dipu We do not need any recognition from you as an ignorant and heretic man!Can you show any evidence from Bible regarding throne of St.Peter in Antioch? What is Canonical and non Canonical? can a ruler of a country/nation has got any power or authority to remove a Spiritual leader or Bishop from his spiritual position in what capacity? You first syudy the Original Hoodoya canon of BarHebrew not kappi Canon By Kurien Chor Episcopa!regarding Bible,more than St.Peter,St.Paul had written epistles! St.Paul rebuked St.Peter by face by face(Gal 2:11,12)regarding kosher foods! St.paul was not ordained by St.Peter! St.Peter was an elder among other elders of Church(1 Peter:1)St.peter is not head of earthly church of Christ! SOC head in Damascus is not Supreme head of Universal orthodox Church as there is no UNIVERSAL ORTHODOX SYRIAN CHURCH! SOC is Only a Regional or Local Church like any other Oriental orthodox Churches! SOC partriarch of Antioch has no power in declaring anybody as saint in Malankara!If you read various epistles written by St.paul clearly says who is a Saint! You Don't know even how early apostles had written letters in early Church! Why did your church hirearchy in Malankara hide letters/bull/Kalpana of Zaka I partriarch in 1996 after Supreme court verdict?How can you talk on behalf of Zaka I? in the history of malankara orthodox Church There is No Catholicose named Baselios Marthoma Paulose! regarding throne you are such ignorant person read Bible Mathew19:28,Luke 22:30;Revelation4:4-10, 3:21 etc There are no thrones for any Apostles on earth!The Throne of Lamb of God,Judjement thrones and Throne of Lord/ God are in bible! MOSC itself is an oriental orthodox Church,as we do not need any recognition from JSOC in Malankara or SOC in Antioch! The Head of Church is Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ did not appoint a single ,supreme head in his church on earth! There is no Universal synod,or Common synod met and declared that Syriac orthodox bible as canonic bible/official bible of orthodox churches!The Bible was not originally written in Syriac language!
You said there is a problem in JOSC USA Archdioces (Beteen HG Tithos and HB Catholicose), but actually the pboblem is not created by HB Thomas I, but like in IOC some HGs think they are superior to the established institutions. Yes, USA is under Patriarch because when it was formed Patriarch thought the division in Kerala would not occur in USA, but one of JOSC bishop cheated the Patriarch and joined IOC. before the current HG Thithos, USA was served by Ivanious of Kandanandu, but was lately withdrawn at the behest of HB Thonmas I because in Kandanadu church only native (idavaka) bishop can entenr the church.Ivanious is from kandanadu. After that HG Thithos is ordained and apponted for USA. However, majority priests and laymens have complained to HB that things are not going well and smooth in USA diocese.
You IOC people don't enjoy of this develpments because a joint Malnakra-Syriac synod is going to be held in mid-next year and all this willl sort out the way HB abolished Arch-Diocese of Greater India. Then Bishop of Archdoicese of Greater India was running a paralal Cotholicate in Outside kerala, but majority of priests and Laymens were against such activitieas of the bishop and they complined to HB Thomas about it (I was one of the preson of a group who met HB about the problem). Finally Archdioces has been aboplished and divided into three dioceses.
Similarly HB Thomas I Catholica has enough courage and capability to resolve the issue in USA, Especailly HB commands hundred percent support from Jacobite community to do things what he whishes and has full confidance upon HB by the Patriach of Antioch.
So don't get exited and overjoyous about the problem of USA. Be catious about the inter-rivalry of Bishops on the one side, and between Catholocose Paulose II and a group of bishops in MOSC.
Dear Joshi True Orthodox Chrisitians in Maalankara are not overjoyous about the problems of Jacobite brothers of USA whom we consider as part of our Church. But we know why and how these things happen and are really pained at it.
In Matthew 26: 52 we read: "All who take the sword (for wounding or cutting) wil die by the sword". Christ our Master told PETER just before that "Put your sword back in place"
Dear Joshi, Dipu and others, This has got a spiritual meaning... Jacobite leaders who believe Peter and his successors as the Head of the church are clamouring for cutting the Malankara Church into two pieces. Remember Christ's words.. It will not stop one cutting. It will go on till the part (of the group which lifted the sword) is CUT AGAIN...
Dear Orthodox Brothers We should be clearly convinced about UNITY and we should treat all Jacobites as part of Church. od wil see it and bless the Unity.
Church is Christ's Body... it is FIRE.. DO NOT YOU THINK YOU CAN GET AWAY EASILY AFTER DOING IT... We are fighting for UNITY .. adn Go dwil reward us.. Whether in US or anywhere if Church is cut it is bad... But stil why I mentioned it? .. I said it to prove that all those who demand divsion are themeselves weakening and there is GOOD HOPE FOR UNITY as demanded by the Malankara Orthodox Church.
I believe you are treating the problems affecting the US Jacobite church very ligtly. But as our topic is different I would not go deeper into that.
Mr Georgy has suggested a wayout to build confidence among all and we should limit our discusison to that.
There is hope for church unity as the majority of both Jacobite and Orthodx faithful are peacelovers. They are already praying togther in many of our churches. That can be extended to priests initially and then to all bishops leading to acceptance of eachother.
Therefore, we have to create a mood for forgiveness and acceptance. Ths is possibel when we think about FUTURE GENERATION. Let us think more about FUTURE THAN ABOUT THE PAST.
Thank you Georgy, you brought up some of the truth of the Supreme Court verdict. Moolayil Corepiscopa was playing cards that he could cheat many by telling lies. He is the 'editor' and 'author' of all the articles in that "Viswasa Samrakshakan"(a publication that contains full of non sense. One can easily understand the kind of personality he holds. This antiochia people are they not ashamed of this kind of church leaders, I wonder how can they tolerate them?
No, Mr Ravi George , What I said is very much related to some of the Issue Mr. gregory brought out that he said” Meanwhile, dissension has raised its head within the Jacobite faction over its ties with Damascus. The flashpoint is North America”, and again he says” A unilateral announcement that laity of the Malankara Orthodox Church in all outside Kerala dioceses, except North America and Brahmavar, have the freedom to invite Jacobite priests to solemnise weddings in our churches”. What does it mean (A detailed explanation was given to Gregory’s arguments byMr. Dipu in ICON forum, so I don’t go detail into it). Here Gregory tries to prove few things, first he unscrupulously tries to negate the role of Patriarch of Antioch by saying that Malankara Church (united) should not have any role with the dioceses which directly comes under the Patiarch (USA and Brahmawar), why? Are they not the offspring of Malanakara Makkal? Secondly he tries(mischievously) to prove that another division will occur in Jacobite Church in due course. What is he aim for? Why does’t he talk about un-accounted case which are being floated in various courts”. Shall he have the courage to tell the MOSC leadership that withdraw all the cases and let us sit on both side of the table and discuss and make a formula about unity (because majority of the cases are in the districts of Ernakulam and trichur, where majority of the disputed churches are under Jacobites custody). Without a concrete formula no unity will takes place, and Greogry’s argument doesn’t have any merit for unity.
Unity among the Orthodox and Patriarch group is not possible till the death of Thomas Pradhaman of the Patriarch group and Severios metran of Orthodox group as both are very strong/cunning/ crooked in their dealings.There are possibility of unity after the period of Thomas Pradhaman as a good number of metrans of patriarch group are eagerly waiting to join the orthodox group.gevarghese philexenos,thomas thimotios,joseph gregorios,abraham severios,.... are some on waiting list.Those hunger for seat and position will be always against unity.Let us watch and see in the next one or two years.
Dear Thomas, Your dream is something like "malarpodikkarante swapnam mathram ", and is a wishfull thinking. Nothing is is going to haapen in Jacobite Church after HB Thomas I period. You must understand that how did the current jacobites continue from 1912 to 1958, the same people and almost the same churches (except few semiraies that were "captured" by IOC) only are under HB Thomas I and they will rremain so loyal to the Patriarch of Antioch after HB's demise. A few years of unity occured but they lately realised that IOC people are actually wolves in the sheep's skin.
And you talk about few bishops, then why did Mor Severious return to Jacobites after a few years of dangling. What role are there for Mor Milithious of Mannuty and Athanasious in IOC now. Why IOC leadership has not promoted Mor Nicholavos of USA to a full fledge Bishop, he is still an auxiliary bishop for almost 15 years and working uder a bishop(real IOC) so junior to him. Why is it so, doesn't he have God's grace?
When the Kerala High court had suggested for an out of court settlement both the groups welcomed the suggestions,but within no time Thomas Pradhaman instigated the patriarch believers for a rebellion against the orthodox group in one way or the other.Hello Pradhamans followers is it Christianity.There are many such fools in both the groups because of which the honest offerings are wasted in court cases which is a great boon to the advocates.Let us stop all this and get separated.Those with majority rule that particular church of that particular area, for which judiciary should seek the edavaka register scrutinize and decide as to who will be the ruler of the disputed parish.
How many of us could predict the fall of USSR, or the fate of that broken wall that once divided the two Germanys? Could the first century people imagine that the mighty Roman emprire would be obliterated?... This list is endless..
Mr Joshy and some of our brothers (both Orthodox and Jacobites camps) think UNITY is impossible... Nothing is impossible with GOD... The day of UNITY in Malankara is not very far... This will happen not because of the will or power of Orthodox or Jacobite belivers, but by the will of HUSBAND of the CHURCH, CHRIST. ...So the right question is: " What does our Lord wants? UNITY or DIVISION? PEACE OR QUARREL? Dignity of own culture or imposition of outside culture? Freedom or Slavery?...
Joshy belives that HB Thomas Thirumeni gets 100 per cent support from the Jacobite faithful for his moves (to divide the church & other things) Dear Sir.. I know the undercurrents in the Jacobote Church... The majority of them are peacelovers who want UNITY. But as St Paul said some of our people will not believe though it is in the word of God very clealry. For them any amount of argument won't help.. the only hope is to WAIT and WATCH things unfolding before us.
During the course of church history, many churches have HELPED or RULED far away chuches... They must also have anointed bishops with absolute slavery SALMOOSAS too... But that is an not excuse for contnuing their domination...Freedom is given by our Lord and no human can take it away by giving or taking signed documents like salmoosas.
Just like nations achieved political freedom in the last century, nations will achieve spiritual freedom... This will happen in Catholic Church, and in all other churches also...
How long your people will shout "Ammaye marannalum Antiocheaye marakula?"... The voice has become very feeble now, rather I don't hear it now ... I can say well that the next generation of Jacobites will not sing this slogan.
THE FUTURE THINKING WILL BE THIS: WE WAN HAVE EXCELLENT RELATIONS WITH ALL CHURCHES INCLUDING ANTIOCH BECAUSE CHRIST'S BODY IS ONE...But we cannot be a slave to any others nor do we want to be masters of foreign churches. CHRIST IS LORD
Please remove Dipu George's 12 questions to a separate thread where I may attempt to answer him as and when I get time. This thread is about peace. Let's not defile it. Dipu pretends to want war, but considering the shrillness of his voice, may settle for a Chevalier title. We have a duty to fast-track the process.
I am neither a supporter of Patriarch or the Orthodox group,but I underline and say again that the main cause of destruction comes from Thomas Pradhaman and believers who are innocent to a certain extend but are instigated by Pradhaman himself who tries to be very innocent.Similarly there are some foolish priests of the Orthodox group acting in the same way like that of Pradhaman.They are doing all these for fame and popularity in their group.I know a few of them from Aluva-Angamali-Trisoor regions.Bro Joshy why are you worried about the American Bishop,he knows how to adjust with the Orthodox bishop with all respect.Now mannum charee ninkonde ninnavan peninea kondea pogum means Gregorios and Coorilos of Independant Orthodox Church in Amayanoor will have more believers throughout India.
DEAR INNONCENT & DIPU , BOTH OF YOUR QUESTION R GOOD of no uses .R U FAITHFUL TO BRITISH BECAUSES WE STILL FOLLOW THEIR SYSTEM (RAILWAY POSTAL DEFENCES ). CAN WE KEEP QUEEN HAS HEAD . OR R U REALY INDIAN YOU DONT BELIVE IN INDIAN HISTORY YOU BELIVE FOREIGN FATHERS THEORY WHICH SUIT THEM. INDIAN COURT WILL NEVER GIVE JUDGEMENT IN FAVOUR OF A FOREIGN HEAD .
Dear Dipu George You Proud Jacobite,Could you answer please give the following rather than asking Georgy some irrelevant non christian,and heretic, questions and concealing the truth(true faith in Jesus/teachings of Christ)) When did this faction came in (start)Malankara? how was the name christians in Malankara were known before Coonan Cross oath/Udayamperoor Synod?
when did Malankara Jacobite Church get official Bible and in which synod they approved it? Earlist record of throne of St.Peter in Antioch and the ordination done by Peter in early church quoting from Bible? Has Tabletha was in use during Instituition of Holy Qurbana by Jesus in Upper Chamber of Mark's House? Did Jesus appoint any single as supreme head in His Church,when and where? What Happened Elias III who came in Psuedo for peace in Maklankara but never did any peace here? How did Abdulla become Partriarch which Universal synod approved It?or what canon did he follow to become partriarch? Why did Abdulla Partriarch join Roman catholic Church and how and when which synod or partriarch cancelled his Ex-communication? Why did not St.Peter preside the first synod in Jerusalem? How Come Coptic Church Use St.Mark's throne and succession in Egypt or Alexandrea? Check Holy City as per revelation of John, how the wall of Holy city Jerusalem is being constructed? Liturgy of SOC being used now did not originate in Antioch,how come you people claim then Liturgy came from Antioch? awaiting your response
1. Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church also called Indian Orthodox Church
2. The first known usage of Throne of Marthoma is in 1301. Further Reading: http://www.malankaraorthodox.tv/Varghese%20John/st%20thomas%20throne.pdf
3. When did Jacobites get a Malayalam bible? Before that what were they using? The church is the process of coming out with an Orthodox Bible. Kurian Kaniamparambil Achan came out with a Malayalam bible, good appreciated. What has it got to do with us?
All the songs used in Orthodox Church, from Sunday service, to wedding ceremony to services for the departed and what not and what not are translated from Syrian to Malayalam by a humble man called CP Chandy Sir. Kaniamparambil Achan’s work is not any greater than that. If you want to know why, try to find on your own. Do something productive, rather than wasting it on SOCM.
4. I don’t understand what you want to say.
5. Spiritual head of IOC, as defined in the constitution, with no temporal powers.
6. Sure, if your atrocities against IOC members in north also stop.
7. Havent your father and mother taught you, how to respect elders? Next time if you use Vattasheril here, you had it from me. Vattasheril Thirumeni was ordained by Patriarch Abded Aloho in Jerusalem. The church during that time, believed that Patriarch Abded Aloho was the canonical bishop. His jumping to Uniate Catholic Church and the politics he played together with Muslim authorities, were not of immediate knowledge in Malankara. However there was one malayali who was in Syria as a deacon and had first hand knowledge of all these politics, he was later Augen catholica bava.
8. Indeed SOC is a sister church to IOC, both members of Oriental Orthodox family, which the whole world knows. I don’t know what you are saying
9. If you have problems, keep it with you, and ask the jacobite family from Mulanthurthy who prayed at Vattahseril thirumenis tomb for 4 years and had a baby on the birthday of Vattasheril thirumeni.
( MOTv can you please republish that miracle)
10. Already intercommunion is happening, there are 1000’s of jacobites who commune at Parumala. 11. Do we every time be reminded that our catholicos belongs to our church? 12. Phrase your question in a way people understand.
No more replies to any of your postings. Let someone mature from Jacobite church come and post, we will reply.
Mr Georgy has done a very good job - a route map for establishing PEACE in the Malankara Church for our FUTURE GENERATIONS. The challenge before us is to implement this action plan.
I read almost everyday Jacobites calling for peace. Peace cannot be true if it gives only instant satisfaction. Peace comes out of an a long lasting solution.
We have to consider the future of Church in India. Please come to reality. We can NOT forever revolve around the Antioch Church. Peope who say Antioch is there to potect us for ever, live in a fool's paradise.
Some others think that dividing the church into TWO will solve all the problems. This will only crop up new issues.
Future generations will be less and less interested in sectarian fights and there will be more inter-church marriages between both factions. If some people think they can divide the church, it is not going to last...
DIVISION WILL NOT LAST As time advances, the church will slowly merge...Then, after a decade, Antioch will not be able to play any role in Malankara.
UNITY IS PERMENANT If the Antioch take the initiative to UNITE the CHURCH in Malankara, the good relations will only flourish.. Dear Jacobite brothers, It is in your advantae to unite the Church.
Dear All To conceal the truth is a serious/deadly sin!Exactly the same is followed by this guy called Dipu George!again PRIDE,ENVY are also there in his behaviour!Yet he is there blaming others!let him examine himself and rethink his nature/behaviour and attitude! How can he judge MOSC with his Jaundice affected eyes!
First we should be clear why should have unity before we set out to think HOW.
WILL DIVISION BRING PEACE in Malankara? History of POLAND teaches us a good lesson. Before the communist rule in Poland, workers were told by comunist leaders to fight the business owners because they were "expoited". So the workers worked less, cheated their employers, finally paving the way for the communist rule. Now when their rule began, the comunist leaders told workers to WORK HARD and produc emore. But they continued to work less, the same strategy which they used against the capitalists. One kio of Apple meant only 850 gms, the practice they learned during the agitation.
Jacobites are told to fight because PEACE means Unity. So they are encouraged to fight to make cause for division. What will happen once the church is divided. There will be new causes for waging war...
Look at our neighbour Pakistan. they got a nation based on religion. But Pakistan still faces an uncertian future where as India emerged stronger.
Weakening position of Antioch, marriages, Orthodox faith, theological advancements, family bonds, youth movng away from villages .etc. will all make the wall of separation between the Jacobites an Orhtodox crumpble. SO artificially created DIVSION IS NOT GOING TO LAST.
Unity and love will only bring lasting peace. Therfore, let us consider Georgy's proposals for peace.
As more UPDATES about the events taking place among Jacobite in USA are emerging, thanks to MTV, it should serve as a lesson for all Jacobite brothren in the Indian subcontinet called as the Archdiocese of Greater India. It is very much parellel to the history of the Malankara Church.
Dear All Most of Oriental orthodox Churches at present known as with Regional/Local/state /or nation's name.However this self appointed and selfclaimed spokesman of Jacobite Church Dipu George is trying to Achieve what when he brings baselss and irrelavant questions to the context/topic blog presented by Georgy S.Thomas! Is he really a Malankara Jacobite or heretic jacobite who has no idea of Christianity and basic principles!He should first of all know that Christ promised 12 apostles judgement throne on his second coming to judge 12 tribes of Israel! None of the early Three Nicene/Ephesus/Constantinaples Common/general(ecumenical) synods were presided by any Antiochean Partriarch or SOC Partriarch! Moreover SOC was only a local Church on the eastern part of Roman Empire!Antioch or SOC partriarch has no connection in Malankara until or prior to A.D. 1653! Even In Persian Church there were no connection with SOC/Antioch until A.D. 620!during A.D.628-649 Mar Morusso was Mafriana of Thigris, consecrated by Partriarch Antioch.The Syrian exodus under Knaithomas(present Knanaya)took place A.D. 345 when Persian Church catholicate Mar Semeon Bershebe (A.D.337-350)and by then persian church was not under Partriarch of Antioch/SOC! Dipu,We IOC/MOSc are not liars! Those who lied and court declared as Saint/Holy, Liar witness as your Holy father, representative of Antioch Partriarch in Malankara, Mar Julius!for fabrications/manipulations and fake and for forged documents submitted to court by Mar Julius together with Jacobite heirarchy by then! Don't try to fool us here!History and Bible teachings were manipulated by your heirarchy!It is all people like you are against unity/peace in Malankara church!
mohanmathew: You seems to be extremely thrilled about some internal issues currently facing the Syrian Orthodox faithful in America. It is interesting to consider if you would have been equally in a celebratory mood during the tenure when your late bishop Makarios created a parallel dioceses in America. Yes, for several decades and only upon bishop Makarios's passing was your IOC diocese in America unified. There were back door ordinations and picketing and even all out brawls during this time in America. So was this also pararel to the history in Malankara you so earnestly want to teach the faithful Jacobites in India. When all those problems were being created I didn't see any Jacobite Media covering that news, so honestly please save your lessons and history lessons for your little faction of dissidents and keep making up your history and I assume as the decade passes we will be able to see new history written about the IOC with wild stories of Nestorians ruling here. What a joke!! Here is to you
When you start reading books written by historiansm, rather than priets from your faction, you will know, whether nestorians ruled here or not.
I pity your sense of history, when 99% of the secular historians, with proof authenticate, the history of nestorianism, in india, its only a bunch of jacobites like you who live in dream world.
Try to read, secular books. Also erad this wikipedia article,
Your information that the Late Makarios Thirumeni created a division in the US Orthodox Church is news to me. Bishop Makarios belongs to my family and he is grandfather's cousin. Your info that the factions suddenly 'got UNITED' is also another interesting news to me.
I understand from your comment that you read only Viswasasamrakshakan. Or else how could you miss reading the recently launched publication of the METRAN KAKSHI journal 'VOICE OF THE AMERICAN JACOBITES' and another article by Joseph Kuriappuram, New York.
'VOICE OF THE AMERICAN JACOBITES' has just released its 3rd issue and a link is availabe on this site now. PATRIARCH KAKSHI is neither sitting idle. They have published an FAQs to educate the Jacobite laity. You can request a copy from your US Bishop Yeldho Mar Thithos who reports directly to Patriarch bypasisng HB Thomas bava. It was read by all malnkaraorhtodox.tv readers.
Try this link http://www.malankaraorthodox.tv/puthenkurisusociety/voiceofamericanjacobites_III.pdf
Please read about the UNITY in the Jacobite church
mohanmathew: Well the fact that you are related to the late bishop Makarios, does not make the information I provided inaccurate. Also by all means you can ask any IOC priest, official, or laity what was going on here previous to Bishop Makarios's passing. Even ask your current bishop Barnabas. My information was not from any Jacobite Media but rather from living in America for the past 25 years. I witnessed it and know many many people who were on both sides. Please lets not even began to divulge into those epic stories regarding your "grandfather's cousin" and what was going on in America. We all know how the IOC feels about Bishop Makarios and the drama that occurred in your catholicate aramana Fyodor: I am not impressed by your little wiki leak link, which was probably posted by you or someone of your elk. Also please when you believe different history make sure you have some evidence and not only man made stories. I do not claim that nestorians had a presence and even influence, but there was also syrian orthodox influence also, don't confuse culture and church, many east syrians were syrian orthodox, that was the case of why the Maphrianate was created. Bottom line I am not convinced that some protestant English man could ever truly understand the complex east christian world. but by all means please continue to grind you axe. Your former bishop ivanios of the reeth wrote a book why the malbar christian were not nestorians, take a look when you get some time. I read many secular books and have talked to many experts. So, please don't try to tag me as narrow minded because I don't believe what was created in Devalokam or don't subscribe to your faction's authority.
Both of you need to grow up and open your eyes and learn to say other words minus...jacobite and Viswasasamrakshakan
It is really fun watching the confidence being built up here unanimously.. Carry on... I am still waiting to see something really constructive to happen here other than the usual crap being thrown at each other.
By your outbursts against Dipu, aren't you all doing the same thing about which you are accusing him of ? So what Moral high ground are you claiming to accuse him ?
It is really nice to know that still there are people "innocent like a dove" and unaware of the drama which happened in your American diocese..
Whatever.. I am still unable to understand how you are going to build confidence by discussing problems in the Jacobite US diocese.. The discussion itself has gone off - track.. Hope somebody will get it back on track.
Let me tell you what we think about this whiole exercise....
Will you all accept with your whole heart and in all sincerity that The Patriarch is the supreme Spiritual head of this church ? And also will you all accept with the same sincerity that Malankara chruch and the SOC are one and the same church ?
And don't do that bcs the 34 Const. says you to do so..... Don't do that because the supreme court told you so.....
You have made some factual errors in your message... This is the problem with me.. I am a earnest student of Church history especially the first five centuries and Patristics. Maybe thats why I just cannot tolerate when someone lies on public forums.
1. The original oriental orthodox churches are not known as local identities.. They are Coptic and Syrian churches. The national identity became an issue in OO community only in the second half of the 21st century starting with the Ethiopians. Even Vattasseril thirumeni did not envision a national church based on ehtnic identity. He was only for full autonomy and not autocephaly.
2. The throne that Christ promised the Apostles has nothing to do with the thrones that we are discussing in Malankara today. These thrones are considered to be the source of priesthood and unbroken apostolic succession.. Can you show that in the case of St. Thomas throne in India ?
3. The I council at Nicea was presided over by St. Eustathios of Antioch first and then followed by St. Alexander of Alexandria. The II council at Constantinople was presided over by St. Meletius of antioch and St. Thimothy of Alexandria on different days..
4. Antioch was not a local church. It was huge and included Persia, Armenia, Georgia and Cyprus.. Later these were made independent by later councils due to administrative and political reason. Regarding Malankara, we just dont know what was the sttate of Malankara church in the first four centuries other than some assumptions. But the assuption that there was no connection between Antioch and Malankara prior to 1653 is fgar fetched and contrary to available facts.
5. That there was no connection between Antioch and the church in Persia is another far fetched assumption. Facts are on the contrary. In 345 when the syrian Migration happened, the great Metropolitan of the east was a subordinate of the Patriarch of antioch.. Try to get a good commenatry on the Council of Nicea to brush up your knowledge.
6. Lying and finding unethical means to achieve something has happened all around. I will give you 10 examples from Metran kakshi. But to what result ? Will it change anything ? Please don't depend on V C Samuel achens story about Mor Yulios.. He had some other issyue with him and like all cross jumpers, he had to justify his tracheary.. Have you not seen Athanasios and Milithios ?
I am not pointing out the above to score a point or continue to arghue with you. I am just not interested in repeating the same points over and over again. And having had debated with you earlier, I know that you are just not bothered about the truth in what you write as long as you write something. I had to point out the errors in your message. Thats all ! I won't be interested in continuing the argument in this line.
Let us try and build some mutual trust and confidence as the blog says.
1. If you know how to operate wikipedia, check the history and see of any of our elk has touched or manipulated any word in the article.
2. David Williams is at present an authority of East Syrian church history and have written numerous books about the Church of East (Nestorian). He completed his theses at Oxford, under the guidance of Sebastian Brock, whom you church have given so much respect.
3. Not every East Syriac’s were Orthodox; there was a very small chunk. The majority joined the Chaldean church after the Schism between Assyrian and Chaldean.
4. Maybe their existed, an Antiochean connection, even I do not want to deny that, however, we do not have sufficient hardcore facts to prove it. But, there are sufficient facts to prove that the faith that prevailed in Malankara was Nestorian. The common liturgy books changed from East Syriac to West Syriac some 200 years before. It was in my church, that the Marthoma Metran agreed with the visting antiochean metrans (Shakrulla Bava) to use some liturgical services like Baptismal services in the West Syriac rather than East. (that is about 250-300 years before) I do not remember the exact year
The conversion from Nestoriansm to West Syriac Orthodox, was a gradual process, in the past 300 years.
5. You being convinced or not, with an English protestant historian is none of my business. All the well known secular books by any historian, apart from recent jacobite and knanaya versions point to the Nestorian connection the Malankara church had. Arguing against is a waste of time.
6. I didn’t call you narrow minded, read my post once more clearly. All the secular books are not written by IOC Develokam, but independent historians. There is an ecumenical group now working in kerala, under a Hungarian professor, about st.thomas Christians, you can find there findings here.
http://www.srite.de/index?id=2&cikk=84
7. Regarding Mor Ivanious, (Ittoop Writer, EA Philip), the time period, when, these people lived, favored clear Antiochean bias. Since in those days, the church inherited a lot from the Syrian church, against the heretical Anglicans, and marthomites, everyone in Malankara had clear bias towards the Syrian Orthodox. All those books are part and parcel of that time period.
Among the three, the only clearly educated person is Mor Ivanious, but history proves that, he was never a person, who uses anything the right way.
"1. The original oriental orthodox churches are not known as local identities.. They are Coptic and Syrian churches. "
That Syrian church was a greek church and has nothing to do with the present Zakka and his followers.
Local peasant syrians fought with the Greek Intelligensia, and created a different church in the 5th century, and offcourse any newbee can claim sucession.
Even I hate it when, people LIE in public forums.
Didnt your study about the first 5 century teach you this ???
"The throne that Christ promised the Apostles has nothing to do with the thrones that we are discussing in Malankara today. These thrones are considered to be the source of priesthood and unbroken apostolic succession.. Can you show that in the case of St. Thomas throne in India ?"
Puthiya kandu pidutham kollam. Ithu aru parazhu thannatha.
"The I council at Nicea was presided over by St. Eustathios of Antioch first and then followed by St. Alexander of Alexandria. The II council at Constantinople was presided over by St. Meletius of antioch and St. Thimothy of Alexandria on different days.."
My information about the vertical split in the Jacobite camp in the US as METRAN Kakshi and PATRIARCH kakshi is first hand information from the Jacobite media, thanks to malankaraorthodox.tv for providing the link. None of the official orthodox sources reported it. Ofcourse they canot stoop down to the level of viswasamrakshkan, your top journal. In your post, after I quoted the source, you have not challanged my comments on your split. So finally you admited that the spilt is real.
Now my question is: Will this division be resolved just like it 'suddenly ended' in the US Orthodox camp? I think it will NOT. That is the price you pay for shouting your infamous slogan 'AMMAYE marannaalum Anthyokyaaye marakkola..'
Maybe you are in a better position to answer this since you have spent more time in USA than my years on this earth. thank you
DearMathew You may be a student of Church History! It does not matter at all.What is unbroken priesthood and succession?he Priest hood of Christ is eternal!the Succession of apostolic Priesthood of Christ is also eternal!The priest hood of Christ is never centered through one apostle/single apostle in Christ Church.This is Jacobite's heretic teaching that Priesthood is converged throuh in Churh st.Peter!
Regarding Church identity,refer acts of apostles,and varius epistles of St.Paul/st.Peter and book of Revelation !everywhere early churches were known as in the name of Local Place or identity!
The way you are stressing that Persian Church was under authority of Antioch during A.D.345 is totally baseless and have no evidence in the early Church History!These are Stories made by Jacobites people in Malankara for their own existence and claims! Can you give any evidence that The Bishop who came with Knai Thomma /syrian exodus consecrated any priests in Malankara?Or if that was the true case as per your claims Why Did Antiocheans never came to Malankara or they did not have connections here during 2nd centuary to 14th centuary?
Antioch was only a province in early roman empire! Church of Prsia/Armenia was not under Antioch as alleged by yourselves!You Claim is to Show that Antioch is Everything for Christians around the world! Dear Mathew I never Called you as a sinner as I am like you! But We may differ in opinion or matters that is human nature or behavior! The followers of Christ were Called as Christians after St.Paul/st.Barnabas combined team gospel work in Antioch!(acts 11:26)
Dear Mathew Regarding Factual errors that I committed ,could you please answer to the following! Has Jesus Christ given any Apostolic Throne in Antioch for St.Peter? How did James (cousin of Jesus) become first Bishop of Jerusalem! Read Acts10:24-26 ,How did St.Peter behaved to Cornelius!Can you show that was the attitude of any Partriarch of SOC in Malankara? St.Paul and and team went through towns they delivered to the believers the Rules decided upon by the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem and told them to obey those rules(acts 16:4)Early Church rules were passed by Jerusalem Church not Antioch! Tell me when Facts are there concealing them and tryuing to misguide believers are right?
Dear Mathew(factual errors cont'd) The First Epistle of St.Peter Clearly and Precsiely mention the early see of Apostle(1 Peter 1:1-2)Then 1Peter 5:1 he St.Peter claimed himself as a Co-elder among other Elders of Church!Where Did St.Peter get his Apostolic Throne? 1Peter 5:13 Your Sister Church in Babylon...This means Malankara Church Is sister church of all other earlyApostolic Churches! The Partriarch title came in use use only in 4/ 5th Centuaries for 4 provinces of Roman Empire!How Come then Partriarch become Supreme Authority of Universal Church of Christ on Earth?
Can we bring the focus of the topic back to the CBMs?
Let me assure Mohan Mathew that I have been a good student of the history of the litigation. The CBMs I suggested, which are to be rolled out in a structured way, should not create any complications.
On the contrary, I think it will have a salutary effect on the perception of the ordinary Jacobites. If they too respond in a like manner, the peace movement will acquire momentum.
A strong and united Malankara Orthodox Church will be a fortress and refuge for the Syriac Church as well as the suffering ancient Christian community in West Asia.
We are living in an era of an India on the ascendant. Instead of we brothers tearing each other to shreds over old animosities which have lost all relevance, let's jointly work together to regain for our battered and bruised Church its true calling as the Mother Church of this country of subcontinental proportions.
mohanmathew: I never admitted to any split in our archdiocese, this is actually utter nonsense. There is a difference of opinion regarding certain issues and they will be resolved in the proper manner in due time. There is false information being thrown around. Ans your MTV has been reporting on and setting up such blogs to continue the propaganda machine. If certain people release their opinion that is their choice we live in a free society. But as a whole the Jacobites regardless of where we are, stand firm in our faith and loyalty to Our Holy Patriarch and Our Syrian Orthodox Church. So please spare us from your further analysis regarding how a proper diocese should function and sum up all problems and make them akin to chanting a phrase we find meaningful and with proper reverence. You want to see disunity, hatred, distrust, simply gander the way of the cross- jumping bishops, that is their plight in your so called church. The kettle calling the pot black, what a joke! Teaching us about unity?
Fydor: Simply connecting east Syrain to Nestorians is incorrect. That is a dialect and people from the eastern side would speak that dialect and also have books written in that form. The content is more important. The theological background and position of the church in regards to the faith taught at the first three synods. Cosmos was a coptic preacher who taught in Kerala and I doubt our leaders would not know the difference between such things. Also what rubbish and utter nonsense are speaking in regards to Our Holy Patriarch not being the legitimate oriental Syrian Patriarch and "peasants" forming the a parallel church. Many came from rural areas and were farmers, peasants though, i think not. of course the church was greek because Antioch was a greek city, but had a mix of oriental and greek influence, that is seen even in the present church. If you have such deep seeded vile for the Syrian Orthodox Church go become nestorian and don't follow in your words, "peasants". So sad how people can be so ruthless in speak and show some respect and address the Patriarch as HH Zakka I.
Dear Mathew About Nicea Synod/council in A.D.325,the historians only say most likely it was presided by Bishop Eustachios of Antioch/St.Alexander of Alexandrea! the reason behind this although Emperor constaine of Constantinaples called for the Synod major part of attendies ( church fathers)belong to Churches of Alexandrea and Antioch! By Then Persian Church was not under Antioch and aware of the Niceane creed . Persian Church approved the Creed only in A.D.410! Another issue is this Bar Hebrew was a Catholicate/Mafriana of Thigris during the end of 13th centuary! He was not a native neither from Selucia or Thigris but from Antioch! How could Bar Hebrew write history of Persian church from A.D. 285? Nestore was a Bishop and partriarch of Constantinaples,he was not from Persia! The assyrian church became nestorians A.D.486.
Throne of Pristhood? It is not biblical at all!even in O.T there is no mention of throne of priesthood!Christ is the eternal High priest in the order of Melchizadek!He is the King of Peace,Righteousness!The Glorious Throne of Jesus Christ in Heaven! How did Apostolic succession St.Paul get as he ordained many people in various places of his mission?
I wonder why the Jacobite Athibrasanam leadership is silent about the issues in American Arthibhadranam. It can be seen as a wise decision since both ARCHDIOCES are of EQUAL status, under the HOLY SEE OF ANTIOCH who shouldn't intervene in eachother's territory.
The remaining MIROR issues can be resolved through mediation. We have a panel already consisting of ......, ...., ... . ((Metran kakashi has already welcomed the mediation)
Some suggesions before the Peace committee for resolving the troubles
1. Athibradrasanam does not believe that PEACE will be achieved by Unity. So we're always for DIVISION. ONLY DIViSION can brings Peace. Viswasasamrakshakan (Dec 2010) carriees an article on Page 6 'SABHA SAMAADHANACHINTHAKAL' by Mathews Aprem Metropolitan. Thirumeni belives Peace will not be achieved by UNITY. Following that advice, let us DIVIDE THE AMERICAN ARCHDIOCESE INTO TWO. That will only bring eternal peace. Those who have doubts about the modus operandi can consult Aprem Thirumeni through Viswasamrakhskan.
2. Anoint Archbishop and Patriarchal Vicar of the Malankara Archdiocese in North America as CATHOLICOS of AMERICA, equal in status to that of the Catholicos of Malankara Archdiocese in India. The newly consecrted bishop wil head the BAVA kakshi.
3. Anoint a bishop for the Metran kakshi. This bishop should report directly to the Catholicose (of Jacobites)in India. He will head the METRAN FACTION.
4. Metran kakashi has already launched a very good jounal. 'VOICE OF THE AMERICAN JACOBITES' It is the American edition of Viswasasamrakshakan. Is this edited and designed in Kerala? Maybe using the knowhow provided by Viswasasamrakhshakan. Good Going.. Bibi Sir
5. Churches can be divide between both Kashis on the basis of Majority.
Pathrosinte Margam was introduced in India by Roman catholics after the arrival of Portughese in India. Malnkara's Antioch connection started much later
GREGORY OF INDIA - late Paulose Mar Gregorios quoted in "SEEMA VARTHA" Oct 1968
"We (Metran Kakshis) in India belong to this Patriachate (ie Syriac Orthodox Church) even if we have our own Catholicose and are autonomous. We have no other source from which to renew our ancient traditions, except the tradition... of Antioch of the Great Syrian Church which once had spread through the length and width of Asia right upto China and Korea"
Dear Dipu You are totally wrong as History says no SOC( Antioch Church) was extended/Spread upto China/Korea!Antiocheans/SOC never spread any Christianity in the universe!You First of all go and learn history of early Church! Then write/post comments with proper evidence of support!
Thank you very much. No Church can remain isolated in this world. Holy spirit is unifying all the churches of Christ.
In this great unifying process, each church is learning from the other. It is an ongoing proess. It will continue till we grow up to the level of our Lord Christ. It happened in the past too.
You think what we call as Antioch church is purely Antiochean origin? Antioch church grew only by assimilating from other centres of Christianity. [To know more details read GEORGIN MIRROR Oct-Dec 2010 artcile by Fr Dr Johns Abraham Konatt].
We in the St Thoasm tradition too grew by assimilating from Antioch. Though we severly criticise American and other Pentacoastal churches, unknowingly we are learning from them too. Learning from anothee does not mean that we should be a slave to them. Prabably you may not agree with me for using the term 'slavery'. It will take a few more decades for our Jacobite brother to understand it well. Your slogan 'Ammaye marannalum antokyaye marakkooola' is very stupid slogan. I think your young generation is realising it now.
The time has come for we Indians to learn further and grow. It is happening now. Some of us may not accept it now, but they too will follow finally. Anticoh church too should outgrwo its past. Otherwise they cannot survive.
[You study about the Antioch Church also. Remember that there are about 5 independent bishops in Antioch who call themsleves as patriarchs. It is good they accept that we are growing and they 'll have to adjust to changes. ]
But we should always be grateful to Antioch church for helping us in our troubles after the arrival of Europeans. Gregorios Thirumeni said this in that context. It is in the 1934 constitution of our Church. We know it and we are having it in our THUBDEN. I think our dear Jacobite brothers are doing a great favour by continuosly warning us about our links with the Antioch church. So we are bound to keep it. Thank you very much
As I told prior, there is not even a shread of evidence to connect Syria with Malankara prior to Connen Cross Oath. ( I know few, but they are not concrete)
Whether Cosmos was a Coptic or Nestorian is debatable. As per wikipedia, he had nestorian tendancies.
I didnt say, that Patriarch Zakka is not legitimate, however for me, the more legitimate bishop for the title of bishop of Antioch is the Greek Bishop of Antioch. Patriarch Zakka is the second and all the others uniates,melkites follows.
Second, I never used the word, 'parallel', and it is history that the present line of bishops ending at Patriarch Zakka, was one formed during the 5th century, wanting autonmy and autocephaly from Greeks.
I wonder why, the Syrians do not agree to the same, when demanded by Indians.
I dont have any vile for the Syrian Church, however, I dont understand why some Indians, are so anxious to clamour for some arabs, throwing dirt at there own fellow brothers.
None of the IOC says, that the throne of St.Peter never existed, and that Patriarch Zakka and his followers are ill-worthy to the throne of St.Peter (It is only me who says in THIS forum about the 5th century spilt, and I have not read, that in any IOC publications).
However, I dont understand why the Jacobites are so much nerve-wracked about the throne of St.Thomas. It was St.Thomas who preached in India and not St.Peter. Give proper respect the the disciple who got martyred here. If we dont then who else would?
Since Mr. Georgy, has mentioned about sticking to the point, am stopping, and not replying even if provoked.
You said, "Lying and finding unethical means to achieve something has happened all around. I will give you 10 examples from Metran kakshi. But to what result ? Will it change anything ? Please don't depend on V C Samuel achens story about Mor Yulios.. He had some other issyue with him and like all cross jumpers, he had to justify his tracheary.. Have you not seen Athanasios and Milithios ?"
I didnt want to reply to any of your notes, but this one made me do it.
I didnt want to reply to any of your notes, but this one made me do it.
You were never a contemporary of VC Samuel Achan.You dont have any direct association with Mar Athansius and Mar Meletius. In fact you dont know all the three, and when infact, when someone moves out of your fold all the nonsenses about them also pop up.
The forged document of Mor Yulios being rejected in the court and you loosing one suit is part of history. If VC Samuel Achan was lieing, then the court too should be lieing. Please understand that throwing dirt at well-known priest is no good for you especially when you have the same background.
Recently a ramban achan from our side, became bishop in your church. I dont see most of our people jumping around to throw dirt at him. Infact there was ceratin outburst when the news was leaked and now nothing. Even after many years you people are after Mar Athanasius and Mar Meletius, that shows how you are controlled by your media.
Have you ever read, what was the intentions of Mar Meletius and Mar Athansius ? Apart from hate messages and false allegations against them in your yellow jounals? They were people who stood for unity after the 1995 court verdict, like your perumpallil thirumeni.
Mar Athanasius, is presently writing an in depth article in Kandanad Diocean Bullitean.
Mathew said, "I am not pointing out the above to score a point or continue to arghue with you. I am just not interested in repeating the same points over and over again. And having had debated with you earlier, I know that you are just not bothered about the truth in what you write as long as you write something. I had to point out the errors in your message. Thats all ! I won't be interested in continuing the argument in this line."
This is the basic problem, everyone tries to score a point, with the information they get from their yellow journals.
It is time and again proved that we syrian christians do not know how to debate.
So these debates hold no meaning. We should find other means to end mutual mistrust.
So Georgy S Thomas is pointing to such measures, let matured people discuss and try to find out ways to implement those.
Again sorry for deviating from topic. Let someone matured from the Jacobite side take over.
Let's try to find some common ground. This is India's time of ascendancy. We are the Mother Church of India. But if we spend our time throwing dirt at each other, we won't ever realise our calling, and will always remain a squabbling, ethnic church in a small state of India.
Only a strong and united church in Malankara will be able to help the Syriac Church, as well as the suffering Christian minority in West Asia.
Had the gift of Saint Thomas' ministry been given to any other community in this country, they would have utilised it properly to benefit everyone. But we are behaving like the man in the parable who hid his talents.
Can Mohan Mathew elaborate on the legal complications which could arise as a result of implementing this CBM?
Perhaps Mathew can find the time to give a perspective on how the ordinary Jacobites will receive it? After initial suspicions, will people warm up to it?
Thank you Mohan and Reni " There is no concrete Evidence suggesting Malankara was the India that St Thomas preached". This is a universal Truth unfortunately. No matter how much you shout against me the fact still remains. Apart from the sayings of Historians we dont have any other archaelogical or concrete evidence supporting this claim. Blame it on the Portugese and the Diamper Synod as you will.
Studying Church Architecture proves that the Syriac Orthodox faith is what prevailed here much before the Nestorians arrived.Nestorian connection evolved much later and couldnt even influence the Church Architecture. We do however have imbibed lots of Portugese Influence in our Church styles but they were just additions on existing Church Architecture.
Let me highlight another fact Werent the Metran Kakshis really ungrateful to write on the Relics of St Thomas gifted and kept at Devalokam that it was given from "Orthodox Church of Mosul"? Whats stopping you from acknowledging that it was from the Syriac Orthodox Church at Mosul. and for Fyodor FYI it Was The present Patriach of Antioch "HH Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas who discovered the relics of the Patron Saint in India while as a Bishop of Mosul.
The Syriac Orthodox Church is truly universal. We have communities everywhere in the world now and comprises turks, arabs, indians , americans, palestinians, lebanese etc. I am friends with many non Indian Syriac Orthodox and our mutual respect puts to shame the "Complex" Metran Kakshis have about their Indianness.
We are christian enough to let your bishops conduct Qurbono at the St Marks Monastery in Jerusalem whenever they come to Israel and visit the Place where the Pentecost took place.
Fyodor... it was hatred in you that made you say your feelings about our Patriarch. May God have Mercy on you.
The History surrounding the Metran Kakshis and Gurgan is exactly the same as what happened in 1912. Mar Athanasios and Mar Militios consecrated Gurgan not for God's Glory but to Harm the Syriac Orthodox Church. In that regard the consecration can be considered diabolic. Would any Metran Kakshis partake of the Eucharist celebrated by Gurgan? if not why?
Paulose Mar Gregorios was a Scholar no doubt but to intepret his sayings wrongly to suit your view point is also meaningless. The Reethu founder "Mar Ivanios" wrote a book while as a priest ( Fr P T Geevarghese)proving that the Indian Christians were Antiocheans from the begining itself. He also claims the circumstances which led him to the Catholic Church and i dont wanna name names here anymore but try reading his history and you will understand what i am trying to say.
There is a Exemplary work titled "The Hidden Pearl" which speaks about the History of the Syriac Church in this world. Anyways wishing my Metran Kakshis brethren a Merry Xmas and Happy New Year
Dear Dipu When you talk about relics of St.Thomas,What happened relics of St.Peter and St.Paul?How can you say that Goorgan issue was a repetition of 1912? How Come Abdulla Partriarch become canonical?Under which Canon? Giving more money to Sultan of Turkey and gaining power from Turkey Sultan was canonical in which way? Can you show any evidence that your Holy antiocheans fathers brought Christianity in India? You should think twice before making false accusations !
How many Coptic Popes lay claim to the See of St Mark? Whom do you consider as the Authentic one? The Coptic Greek Orthodox Pope? Coptic Catholic Pope?
To the Oriental Orthodox Churches Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas remains the True Patriarch of Antioch and Pope Shenouda the True Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church. Go take your arguments to similar schismatics like you Fyodora
The Coptic Orthodox Church under the Sheouda Patriarchate do recite the name of HH Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas along with their Pope HH Shenouda and Viceversa atleast in the Middle East and elsewhere.
We dont care what the Metran Kakshis think of their Holy Father. Our Patriarch will never be bound by 1934 Constitution. Period
and @ Georgy
Before any CBM's can be considered dont you think that Trust and Honesty are the foundations on which these Peace Proposals can be Built? If so then what the Metran Kakshis can do is to legally sign a document removing all cases in the Lower and Higher Courts against the Syriac Orthodox Church in India signed by your catholicos and leadership. This Honest gesture on your part will pave the way to any peace proposals that can be suggested ( ofcourse respecting the faith and traditions of both factions) What say?
I had already mentioned in a posting above what is the basic requirement for any unity talks with us... that is, if by building confidence, the ultimate aim is to reach unity.
If not, if CBM's are only directed at peaceful co-existence, things will get more simpler.
Dear Dipu We had already dicussed the issue of Malanlara antioch relation and SOC rite in Malankara nearly 5 months ago in MTV! We Know how when and where it was started! you don't need to tell us that your alleged and false story:- It was Holy Antiocheans who preserved Malankara Church from A.D.52. These are purely lies of jacobite's has no basis in Malankara Nazrani history! You honour Antioch more than the Holy father in Heaven! You can continue to do So! However MOSC is not after you guys so stop your wicked/crooked mentality of humilating,belittlying,mocking, abusing us and our heirarchy! When a bishop bribed the Turkey Sultan and got his position as Partriarch in Antioch,is it canonical?The greed and selfish mentality of your Holy Fathers are the cause of split in Malankara church or the church feud in Malankara ever since more than a centuary back!A Bishop who behaved like Judas Iscariot become Canonical in which way?Coming to the point how come When Paul consecrated and ordained Thimothy as Overseer(bishop)was there any Shamoulsa/stuaticon like Antioch Partriarch used to do?When Jesus gave the thecommandments/authority was there any Stuaticon/shamoulsa signed by the disciples? You just intruded this blog in order to cause disturbance and hatred and as a Christian your never showed the indulgence or patience/preservance!(To be cont'd)
Dear Dipu Abded Messiah partriarch was deposed by Turkish sultan! However turkish Sultan has no power to excommunicate him from synod of SOC and his position as Partriarch! Your Heirarchy and Mar Yulios tried to forge documents to show that he(L/L Abded Messiah) was ex-communicated from SOC synod! However finally the truth prevailed/triumphed. The Mystery surroundingL/L Elias III Partriarch for leaving Antioch,in the name of pseudo peace mission in Malankara(unaccoplished peace mission) are not a secret to Assyrians as well as Malankara Church! I am not dragging that issue now here! You are wishing(Christmas/new year) MOSC people in your Way of speaking(Methran Kakshi) as like a mocker/wicked counsel not out of your heart but from the lip for what? first you read epistle of 1 Peter 2:1-2 and then try to live like that as a true Christian at least for the time being rather than making lip service! All Apostles of Jesus Christ are Equal in their position and authority! St.Peter the Pioneer in early church was told to make report of his activies in places where he used to preach Gospel to the Church and elders of Jerusalem! read acts of apostles carefully,then you will know the truth!
Dear Georgy S.Thomas all our dicussions/comments are based on past!the real issue is here THE TRUE ROCK:JESUS CHRIST! If we are able to follow the Real/true rock Jesus Christ all disputes or feud can be settled amicably in the real Spirit of God! However the Jacobites faction's faith is in PETER/throne in Antioch.As per Jacobite Heirarchy the Simon Peter is the Rock and they Jacobites people give more glory to Throne of Antioch! Not the Throne of Jesus Christ!the Power, glory goes to Throne in Antioch! Unless and until they(jacobites)change their heretic attitude and faith(throne in Antioch) Peace and harmony in Malankara will be Day dream!
It was the same Patriach Mor Igantius Abdullah who consecrated your Vattseril ( Mar Dionysius) as a Bishop! If you still maintain that Mor ignatius Abdullah is uncanonical then the validity of the Bishophood of Vattasseril ( Mar Dionysius) is also in doubt!
So be careful the next time you try to belittle late Lamented Patriach Mor Igantius Abdullah
The Late Catholicose Mar Augen while being consecrated as the Bishop of Kandanadu by Late Lamented HH St Ignatius Elias III did write in his Stathithicon that He ( Mar Augen) Abjures Abdul Messiah as he was uncanonical?
Wou you like to contradict what your catholicose did?
and Samji.. you still havent answered my question about the relics of St Thomas kept in Devalokam
We the Syriac Orthodox in India honour our saints and the faith of our Elders.
In the Mulanthuruthy Synod where Parumala Thirumeni was the secretary to LL HH Mor Ignatus PeterIII, The last sentence of the resolution signed in that Synod is worth mentioning here "We, Holding the Cross and the Bible, do promise that neither we, nor our successors would deviate to the left or right from the Allegiance to the See of Antioch".
Let me Quote St Parumala Thirumeni in His Salmooso "I am always duty bound to submit obedience as is due to the High Priest Hood of HH Moran Mor Ignatius Peter III Patriarch of High Esteem reigning on the Apostolic Throne of Antioch and of All the East as the most ancient Syrian Patriarch of Antioch and of All the East comprising India and Malayalam"
The rest of the Salmooso has been reproduced many times here in this forum and i wish to add that we the Syriac Orthodox Christians abide strictly by what the Saint had written about his Allegiance to the Patriarch and to the See of Antioch. The saint never ever mentioned about any Allegiance to the Throne of St Thomas.
This is the faith of the Syriac Orthodox People here in India. what can we do Samji and Ebenezer. How can we accept a new Doctrine Post 1912. We would never dream of contradicting our Saint of Malankara Parumala Thirumeni lest we be hedl accountable during the Day of Judgement. Do you honour the Saint? If so wont you honour his Salmooso also?
For the sake of keeping this thread clean, am not bothering to reply you.
However, I will reply if nothing meaningful happens here.
You said, about my "hatred", I dont write in any forum except this, giving replies. Just think about the numerous 'HATE' posts that you fill SOCM forum with.
The versus of Jesus about, Log Eye and Speck, is clearly for you. Read it at home.
As I said, replies will come, if nothing meaningful happens here.
I would like to offer you a different perspective on the relics of the Apostle Saint Thomas. You need not agree with me. But here's a different viewpoint.
The Apostle Saint Thomas came to India to preach the message of redemption, and we are his legatees. He was martyred in this country and was buried here. Therefore, we, his children, are the rightful owners of his mortal remains.
The Edessans thought of Indians as dark-skinned savages, and without showing any understanding towards the possible existence of a community here which cherished his memory, and without showing the courtesy to inform us or seek our permission, stole his mortal remains from India and spirited it away to Edessa.
In the vicissitudes of history, the shrine in Edessa was destroyed, but not before portions of the relics reached several churches, including Ortona in Italy and Mosul in Iraq.
If the Edessans hadn't stolen the mortal remains, it would have remained safely to this day at one location in India.
Now, the reliquary kept at Devalokam does mention that it was received as a gift by HH Catholicos Augen from the Orthodox Church in Mosul.
This is a fair acknowledgement considering that the ties between MOSC and SOC are presently strained. When the ties are repaired, the acknowledgement deserves to be made more explicit.
But, in any case, please remember that we are the rightful legatees of the relics of Saint Thomas and there's no need to prostrate before anyone for giving back a portion of a treasure which originally belonged to us, and was stolen from here. Self-respect is an important concept for the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church.
The unity I have in mind is a merger of equals based on mutual respect with clear cut goals for the future towards which everyone's energies can be channelised.
As Churches become smaller and smaller, the role of the clergy increases disproportionately, and that of the laity diminishes. This is not good for the spiritual nourishment of either the clergy, or the laity.
A united and strong Malankara Church can be a real friend of the Syriac Church. This, to me, is what peaceful co-existence is all about.
Once a division is created for whatsoever reason, there remains the potential for future rancour, even if the parting is amicable.
The Syriac Church had a direct role in the split and creation of the Thozhiyur Church. For a while, the Thozhiyur Church continued to enjoy peaceful co-existence with Malankara, or to use the current slogan of the Jacobite leadership, it was a 'Sister Church' of Malankara. I need not elaborate. You are a student of history.
But because the split had happened, there remained the potential for future strains, and this was precisely what Palakkunnathu Mathews Mar Athanasius exploited. Today, the Thozhiyur Church is a camper of the Marthoma Church and no longer a 'Sister Church'.
Until a few decades ago, despite some distinctions, the Knanaya denomination was considered an integral part of the Malankara Church. In fact, for a brief interval during the 1950s, Mor Clemis of that Church even headed the Jacobite faction of the Malankara Church.
Today, for all practical purposes, it's a 'Sister Church'. This transformation has happened right before your eyes, and you haven't even realised its full import.
True to form, the role of the clergy has increased disproportionately in Knanaya denomination. This sisterhood isn't to the benefit of the laity in that denomination, because due to their diminished numbers they cannot dream of having their voice heard by policy makers.
Therefore, the Syriac Church-inspired 'Sister Act' is not agreeable for us. But a strong and united Church in Malankara can be a trusted ally and a good sister of the Syriac Church.
Dear Dipu It was you who brought the issue of canonical Partriarch!So you must know that The antiocheans never followed any canons for Authority ,power and position!They used to Consecrate ribel catholics in Persian Church and that was the main reason of Hoodoya Canon came in existense! The relics of St.Thomas has nothing to do with the throne of Antioch!It was not the throne of Antioch who took the relics from Malankara to Eddessa! Honouring the Saints in Malankara by SOC are just likes the attitude of Pharisees during Jesus Time! read st Mathew23:29-30 ` nothing else! About your Shamoulsa and Stuaticon issue; you are not follwing basic/fundemental Christian values or principles! First follow Christ! Then talk about other matters.I did not belittle any your Partriarch! What I said was That He Was Greedy person!As a bishop and supreme head of SOC he was not supposed to be like that!You read the Epistle written by St.Paul to Timothy and compare it with The activities Of L/L Abdulla Partriarch in Malankara! Read I Peter 5:2-3 regarding the commandment St.Peter gave to Church Elders! As successor of St.Peter did your Holy Father L/L Abdulla follow it?in Malayalam there is a saying "Ashaan pizhachal Eethamilla ". Since the mistakes/errors are done by the teacher or master they are not supposed to be punished! There is nothing new you drag 1912 here! Don't forget in 1958 the Catholose in Malankara was accepted by Partriarch Yakkob III without any conditions!This means the cosecration of Catholicose by Abdul Messiah in1912 was canonical and right! Mr.Dipu you as I told earlier are not here to unite people or preach/show peace and unity, you are here to show contempt and hatred that is all you are doing!
Dear Dipu It is high time to stop your utterences like Throne and Shaumulso as those two has nothing to do here in this blog!St.Peter was one of 12apostles of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ promised 12 Apostles each thrones on his second coming!Jesus did not appoint St.Peter as head of apostles or head of his Church on earth! Antioch Partriarch of SOC was never appointed as head of Church in India,China and Japan.Antioch Partriarch or his clergy or delegate never preached gospel anywhere in the east including China,India and Japan!! What are you trying to teach or tell MOSC your alleged/false/baseless/fabricated stories of SOC!You Are not Syrian! You are only and Indian and you will be called by SOC of Syria as an Indian not Syrian!In order to get Heaven or to go heaven, We don't need your SOC certifcate/Antiochean throne recommendation!
The Unity as you envision - a merger of equals based on mutual respect with clear cut goals for the future towards which everyone's energies can be channelised, is the perfect thing that can happen to the Malankara Church.
At the same time, a unity just for the sake of unity will e meaningless. We have our lessons from history.
But I cannot agree with your observation that 'A united and strong Malankara Church can be a real friend of the Syriac Church'... And this is where we differ.
Talking about unity and at the same time advocating just friendly relations with the SOC is in itself calling for division.
I don't know why it is so difficult for the Metran faction to comprehend this reality - We the SOC in Malankara do not consider ourselves seperate from the SOC. And we cannot even think about that.
This is not something being demanded of us from the Patriarchate. This is not something which has been forced down upon us. This is not something which has been imposed on us without our consent. This is something which we have voluntarily submitted ourselves to. It is a part of our faith now.. ( older achayans please don't jump at me ).
Your examples of Thozhiyoor and Balayaar are apt for the occassion. Having studied church history from all perspectives, I cannot understand how you can hold the syrians responsible for what happened. We malankarites took advantage of the old age of one Syrian Bishop and in the case of Balayaar, he took advantage of the confusion and situation that existed in Malankara at that time. I am not going into details because that is not the topic of our discussion.
Any split that has happened in the Malankara church ( except the one with Syro - Malabar ), we were the one's responsible.
Knanaya archdiocese is still a part of the Malankara Church but they are autonomous. Same is the case with Simhasana Churches, EAE and the Honnavar mission.
Georgy, you know very well why the above institutions chose to remain as they are. And the result of that is in front of our eyes. If there is a real and long lasting unity in Malankara, the above can e slowly integrated back.
So in fact, by proposing to unite the church in malankara at the expense of severing the canonical bond with SOC, you are in fact advocating for division and not unity.
Our stance is clear... We can unite.. provided you accept that we belong to the Syrian Orthodox Church of which the Patriarch is the supreme Spiritual head. The Catholicate is a reality and there is no running away from it. The Patriarch has never enjoyed and will never demand temporal authority over malankara ( pls do not generalise what happened in the after math of 1909; there were good reasons ). If this formula of One Church - One Patriarch - One catholicose is acceptable to you, Unity can e achieved gradually.
If no, even discussing any unity formula outside the above condition will be a futile exercise.
Dear Dipu St.Peter after resurrection of Christ,and after his reistatement by Jesus really repented and lead a simple and humble life as per teachings of Christ in St.Luke22:26-27.He never posed/acted as Supreme among apostles in early church.St.Peter and St.john,St.James were known as Pillars of Church Read Galatians2:9 The Position ,title etc of Partriarch are made creation after 4th centuary!
The Shaumoulsa of Antiochean Partriarch has only its value and significance when they rightly and justly follow the teachings of Christ and preseve the right faith in Christ!Further more It was Not Shaumoulsa and Stuaticon of antiochean Partriarch which made Parumala Thirumeni as a saint! I would request you to produce a copy of Shamoulsa and stuaticon that St.Peter gave to his successor in Antioch!
Merry Christmas and a Happy and Joyous New Year to all those who are participating in this thread. The time you are spending is appreciated. Let's keep the conversation going for some more time. After this is wrapped up, I hope to come out with a CBM-2. We don't want our Catholicate to lose its next 100 years too in litigation and strife. So let's do what little we can to generate some ideas which can be stepping stones to heal the wounds of this battered and bruised community.
You said:....your MTV has been reporting on and setting up such blogs to continue the propaganda machine. If certain people release their opinion that is their choice we live in a free society...
Fact: MTV did not report anything except providing a link your own Jacobite sources. The first one was issued by your Bishop Theethos's office in the form of FAQs. In my ealier posts, I had mentioned the the rebel group sources which were severly critical of Bishop Theethos... As you kow this blog was 'bout UNITY and not about DISUNITY. But yor people use every opportunity to disperse the seeds of division and hatred.
You hope for unity in your faction while you want to divide the Malankara Chuch. In Matthew 26: 52 we read, "All who take the sword (for wounding or cutting) will die by the sword".
We know how peacelovers your leaders are! Therefore, we know how this will end up.
Dear Georgy regarding the Unity Of Two Factions/Churches in Malankara my suggestions are that:- Let the two sides/factions continue as seperate entity, the way currently MJSOC operate! However both Factions should stop all public critisism/provoking statements and irrelavant unchristian attacks from both sides! The Jacobite faction should also stop all their heretic teachings/unorthodox teachings with immediate effect! The sacrements and Holy Eucharist in Both factions are the same and one!therefore Jacobites should also respect and honour the value Holy sacrements of MOSC and its clergy like theirs! Even the court observed that both factions still preserve the Jacobite faith/traditions! The cases of disputed Churches/properties should be handled/settled in a Christian Way of principles as suggested by Fr.Punchakkonam in I.O.H or similar way! MOSC still honour/respect SOC patriarch as per 1934 Constituition! don't forget during Nicene Synod there were two catholicose for Persian church and armenian church who were not under roman empire and the title/position Partriarch came later in after the Constantinaple synod! MOSC is autonomus,autocephelous church! The infamous bull#203 of L/L Yakkoob III should be voided/withdrawn by H.H. Zakka I,if he sincerely wish peace and harmony in Indian/malankara Church!There is no meaning when they recognise /follow the heretic Bull#203 and remembering St.Thomas in thubden(diptychs) as an Acolyte or laity!
Just as couples who parted amicably later enter into bitter property and custody battles, once a division occurs for whatsoever reason, there remains the potential for future rancour.
The Syro-Malabar Church is comprised of our own people, but we parted in a bitter manner. After centuries, the wounds may have healed, but we've totally forgotten that they are our blood brothers.
We've lost something precious there.
A united Syrian Christian community would have perhaps changed the destiny of Kerala. Since that was not to be, let's try to somehow salvage the unity which we lost in the 1970s.
My observation is that smaller denominations are a burden on the laity. For one, they seem to be dominated by the clergy. History has taught us what destruction can be wrought by clergy running amok. Only if the laity remain united can their indiscipline and tendency for self-aggrandizement be checked.
At the smallest level, pentecostal/evangelical congregations seem to be thoroughly monopolised by their pastors, who are known to wield total control over every aspect of life of the members.
And for some reason which I cannot explain, smaller denominations somehow do not produce extraordinary achievers from among the laity.
The community as a whole has a role to play in moulding good citizens who are assets to their society, and the country at large.
Correct me if I'm on the wrong track here, but let's keep the dialogue going.
Dear Mathew your posting on23/12/10 you said that my response/comments were blunders(in the name of history) as you will answer to that in appropriateforum/ blog!However I say that there were no blunders that I did! An example recently(recent past) Jacobite Church in Malankara celeberated centenary of "Pampakuda NamaskaraKramam" This centinary celeberation itself is a proof that Malankara Church did not have any ties/relation with Antiochean church from A.D.52to A.D.1653!How come some of your people claim then Malankara Church had connections with church in Antioch from first centuary?Or again this is a Factual mistake or error!
If Antioch Church had relations with Malankara chuch from beginning we would haev followed PATHROSINTE MARGAM...
I read a book KERALAPAZHAMA by Dr Herman Gundert. It says about Thomayude margam. teh only fstival we had was that of ST THOMAS. In Malankara till teh Portughese arrived there was no KEPHAYUDE MARGAM, only teh tradition of ST THOMS was here. It is absolute proof that we never had any relationship with Roman Church or Antioch Church. THAT IS FOR SURE
I appreciate the open hearted policy put forward by Mr Geogy Thomas. In fact, hardliners fear such people who are interested in studying and listening to the views held by the other group. This is becasue fanatics know that if faithful make an attempt to study, they'll be peaceful and unity will come slowly. Therefor they want people to continue fighting and abusing each other. I pray that let there be one hundred Georgys in both Orthodox and Jacobite camps.
And let me repeat.. they were nothing but blunders - half factual errors and the other half imagination taking new forms..
I don't want to address any of those because - 1. It is pointless
2. It is not our topic of discussion.
When there is an appropriate blog, I will be more than happy to contribute.
You jump from topic to topic without any real substance. Sorry to say this.. but you seem to have a tremendous capability to say a lot of things and end up saying nothing.
You just assemble a set of strawmen.. and when they get knocked down one by one, you assemble the next set..
The latest strawman is your relating Pambakuda namaskaram centenary celeberations to Antioch - Malankara relationship..
I am really not interested in such arguments for the sake of it without any substance.
Let us stop pricking at the wounds and keeping them alive forever and start looking for some medicine which will heal this century old wound.
Wishing you and family a very Happy and blessed New Year !
M'shadrenan lokh hubo w shlomo. Eedo Brikho w Shato Hdato.
Dear Mathew I have already told in Black& white (crystal clear)regarding my stand,peace and Harmony In Malankara Church feud! I did not try to pierce any healing wounds that are already there! In Malayalam there is a saying that" Kannadachu Kanichal iruttu akilla " This the truth!This exactly what you are doing!I am not bringing new straw blocks for you to hit and knockdown as you were not able to defend yourselves so far!Thanks for your Wishes and Greetings and may You also have a Blessed Happy New Year!
@Dipu george Your comments on blog dated 22/12/10 refers.How Can you tell us What you believe is Universal thruth as you have no evidence in Bible/History /and tradition of church or anything?Can you quote from any source that Malankara Church was under see of Antioch from A.D.52!You have only read history(story suited for Jacobite faction written/made by Jacobites)who has not conducted any research or study like secular historians! Regarding Church architecture,who did the study,survey,when and where,references are neither quoted or supported in your entirely baseless arguements!
Has St.Mark Monastry in Jeusalem can accomodate 3000 people+120 early disciples +12 apostles in early centuary for baptism with fire and spirit and birth of Christanity in those days? Finally the sainthood of Vattasseril thirumeni has nothing to do with peace,unity and Harmoney in present church feud in malankara!Your comments are totally illogical and imprudent!
@Dipu George During judgement day who will account for what? You are not the judge or the counsel?You have not followed the commandments of Jesus!So do not tell others about what will happen because of Shaumulso of Antioch patriarch on judgement day!"DO NOT JUDGE OTHERS SO THAT GOD WILL NOT JUDGE YOU IN THE SAME WAY YOU JUDGE OTHERS" Moreover could you tell us Which synod appointed Patriarch PeterIII as head of all the east,India and Malayalam,which year where did take place? MOSC head know his flocks and the flocks also very well aware their their spiritual head and shephard! So there is no need of making letterhead like SOC and MJSOC for sending bulls/kalpanas!
Dear Dipu George In 1912 there were new no doctrine came in Malankara Church as alleged by you!1912 H.H. Abded Messiah consecrated a catholicose in Malankara had nothing to do with throne of St.Peter in antioch/Damascus!St.Thomas/St.Peter were Apostles of Jesus Christ and they were Ambassadors of Christ!Jesus never gave A throne for St.Peter in Antioch and he was declared as supreme head of Jesus' church on earth!It Is The Theory/Doctrine of Jacobites in Malankara follwoing infamous bull ofL/L PatriarchYakkob III around 1973 that St.Thomas was not a priest he was only a Laity as allegedly Claimed by your Supremehead without any any Biblical teachings, values/evidence or support to declare his dictator ship in Malankara which was totally unchristian and heresy! L/L Yakkob III were totally disregarding the Epistles written by St.Peter also not following any canons of church!
It was Your Holy Father L/L yakkob III who saidthrough his Bull that St.Thomas was not a priest but only a layman! Then what are you claiming in the relics of St.Thomas? This is The way you respect an Apostle of Jesus Christ who did his Gospel work in Far east,Persia and India ete and died for Jesus in india etc.By remembering St.Thomas in Thubden you are not respecting him but only a lip service to show others or to deceive the faithful/followers of your church!
You people embrace the hands of Holy Fathers or bishops/priests(kai Muthuka)merely not because of celeberating H.Qurbana by them,St.Thomas put his hand/fingers on the pierced/wounded body of Jesus Christ!St.thomas put his finger on the scars of the nails and his hand onJesus side(where soldier plunged his spear on Jesus side) and he confessed"MY LORD And MY GOD" Therefor you people stop your heresy about St.Thomas,who is our Father(Malankara Nazranis)Who is just like St.Peter,the apostle and Pope/Patriarch of India!We do not need any recognition from Antioch Patriarch or MJSOC regarding the status of MOSC or its patron saint!
@georgy s.thomas Please refer to SOCM message#19720 of 01/21/2011 of V.T.John as you may send him a response to his baseless claims of Holy see of St.Peter and Throne of Syrian Patriarch of Antioch and ALL THE EAST!until,A.D. 1876 no syrian/antioch patriach used his see "all the east"!
@Fyodor Are you making CHRIST who said his Church shall be ONE a thief? How do you know that that will be no unity?
Let there be fierce discussion in every site and publications. Each and every issue should be discussesd. It is a better trend. These discussions only prove that there exists some bond between both. Understanding will come slowly if we continue these discussions and engagements. Therefore it is healthy. Let the discussions prolong..DON'T WORRY
I am against people who want to make peace somehow and at any means. This will only make matters even worse later.
The Church was united QUICKLY (two times) soon after the earlier court verdicts. So many people were diappointed that this time (1995 Supre Court order) it did not happen, even after 15 years... BUT WHY?
A QUICK merger would have again made matters even worse which would only have led to another split and more cases. BUT GOD REIGNS.
We'll see the enemies of UNITY OF CHRIST'S body put to shame before the actual unity takes place. Even traces of rebellion will also be eliminated by the power of God. SABHA IS HIS BRIDE, our faith is that the Husband Christ will make HIS Bride PURE & PERFECT.
What FYODOR wants is: WE SHOULDN" TALK, PART WAYS AND PRETEND THAT WE ARE AT PEACE. Let the faithful talk, ask qestions, raise doubts, disagree, clear doubts, come to certain conclusions.. let them engage... let a generation pass, let them engage socially, WORSHIP LORD, let their children marry from both camps... let them move out of their old places, let them educate, Let them study Bible and words of chruch fathers, let them grow spiritually, Let them understand the leaders who misgude them........ LET US SEE IF THERE WILL BE UNITY
Jacobite wants to stop all relations, all connections, all engagements beween Jacobites and Orthodox. Why?
They know well this will eventually lead to exchange of ideas, exposure of dirty elements, and understanding between the camps. They don't want this to happen. But in reality, both sides wil engage and thsi will ultimately result in unification. I think that day is not far off
102 comments:
Well, the suggestions and good intention are appreciated. Jacobite priests taking part in these sacraments along with our priests is already in practice.We shall not constrain it to Marriage and Funeral, Let there be freedom for laity to invite any Jacobite priests or Bishops. I am sure it will be welcomed by wider section of church and will be a success.
66 Metrolpolitans and thousands of priests entering each others territory - Would clergy welcome it?..... I heard of brain drain ......but here ....MONEY DRAIN!!.
We should not jump into conclusion without clealy studying the legal implications of inviting Jacobite priests to lead our worship. In the past we have had bitter experiences.
The Jacobite leaders survive by false campaigns and misleading ordinary innocent people who do not have much role in their leadership. But the effect is on the wane and the number of faithful who trust them has drastically fallen. I think we need to show more patience and let the wounds to be healed naturally.
The legal battles cannot go on for ever and we will see that people themselves calling for UNITY in the near future. Fearing a UNITY, Jacobite leades have upped their clamour for division. They know any delay can cause accceptance of the Orthodox vision for Church Unity.
Due to Malankara Varghese murder case Jacobite leaders are finding it more difficult to get 'CHAVERS'. Faithful who used to believe Jacobite leadership blindly are deserting them now. This was clearly evident in the Jacobite leader's call for 'the biggest ever gathering' resuling in the gathering of just around 2000 people. Peope are losing confidence in his leadership. They know HB's magic doesn't work anymore!. PEOPLE WANT PEACE!
Meanwhile HH Patriarch has clipped Jacobite leader's wings by taking away archdioces like USA, Europe and Gulf from him. So the are now two groups in US - Metran kakshi (suporitng HB Thomas I) and Patriarch kakshi (supporing HH Patriarch). In the archdioces of malankara too groupism wil worsen in the near future.
SO THE BEST STRATEGY WOULD BE TO WAIT AND WATCH PEACEFULLY.
Please remember that it is in our advantage to delay the process.
Dear All
Unity between MOSCand JSOC at present is diificult!However we can achieve peace and harmony if the two heirarchy make possible changes in their attitude as well as ending disputed churches or wrangles in court by bilatteral dicussions between two hierarchy of two factions in the true Spirit of God!
My name is Dipu George
Before this CBM can happen Georgy .. can iask a few questions?
1) Whats the official name of the faction headed by Baselios Mar Thoma Paulose II?
one official name out of the many would be deeply welcomed
2) EARLIEST RECORDED EVIDENCE of St Thomas Throne in India in the Malnkara Church
3) Does your Church have an official Bible ( Old and New Testament) for the faithful or should they adhere to the Syriac Orthodox Church's Bible translated into malayalam by Most Rev Curien Cor Episcopa
4)Dialogues to remove the "Excommunication" of the IOC Priests.
Remember the tablitha is very important during the Celebration of Holy Qurbana
5) Is HH Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas , Patriach of Antioch and Supreme Head of the Universal Syriac Orthodox Church and seated on the See of St Peter the official Supreme Head of IOC?
6)as for CBM can cases filed against the Syriac Orthodox Church in the various Disputed Churches be removed or closed?
7) Who consecrated Vattasseril as Bishop in Jerusalem? Was he the Canonical Patriach of Antioch. If so what was his name?
8)The Present Patriach Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas has on record stated he is willing to accept IOC as a Sister Church. Why cant IOC respond to that in a favourable manner?
9) Declaration of Vattasseril as a saint unilaterally has put unremovable blocks for re unification taking into account his activities against the Syriac Orthodox Church
10) Sister Churches can hold dialogues and talks on intercommunion. Isn that an advantage for peace efforts?
11) Why doesnt the Catholicoses of Devalokam not put the Official name of the Church in their respective Letter Heads?
12) Are any of written evidences of Mor Augen Late Catholicose ever valid in Church History?
Awaiting your response and praying that this be posted in the comment
kurukkante kannu kozhikkUttil thanne
DEAR DIPU,
UNLIKE THE CHURCH HEADED BY THE SYRIAN PATRIARCH HAS MANY NAMES LIKE UNIVERSAL SYRIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH,SYRIAC ORTHODOX CHURCH,JACOBITE SYRIAN CHURCH,MALANKARA JACOBITE SYRIAN CHURCH(EVEN THOUGH MALANKARA WAS STRIPPED OFF IN 2002 BY THOMAS BAVA),MALANKARA JACOBITE SYRIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH ETC.,THE REAL MALANKARA CHURCH HEADED BY H.H.PAULOSE II HAS ONLY ONE OFFICIAL NAME' THE MALANKARA ORTHODOX SYRIAN CHURCH' WHICH IS CLEARLY MENTIONED IN THE 1934 CONSTITUTION.TO DISTINGUISH THE CHURCH FROM THE ANTIOCHEAN CHURCH NOW A DAYS THE CHURCH IS ALSO KNOWN AS THE INDIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH ESPECIALLY OUTSIDE INDIA AS THE MALANKARA CHURCH HAS GROWN AS A GLOBAL CHURCH.
2.THE PATRIARCH IS NOT THE SUPREME HEAD OF THE MALANKARA CHURCH.IF THERE IS A PATRIARCH ACCEPTED BY THE MALANKARA CHURCH AS PER THE CONDITIONS LAID OUT THE 1934 CONSTITUTION
APPROVED BY THE SUPREME COURT,HE WILL BE CONSIDERED AS THE SPIRITUAL HEAD AS FIRST AMONG EQUALS ALONG WITH THE CATHOLICOSE.
3.THE PARTRIARCH'S PROPOSAL AS SISTER CHURCH IS MEANINGLESS AS THE MALANKARA CHURCH IS ALREADY A PARTNER IN THE ORIENTAL ORTHODOX FAMILY AS EQUAL PARTNER LIKE THE SYRIAN CHURCH.THE JACOBITE CHURCH IS NOT A MEMBER OF THE O.O FAMILY(INDEPENDENTLY).
4.THE BIBLE IS NOT WRITTEN IN SYRIAC LANGUAGE ORIGINALLY.IT WAS WRITTEN IN GREEK AND HEBREW.NOBODY CAN INVENT A DIFFERENT BIBLE DEVIATING FROM THE ORIGINAL TEXT.SOME OF YOUR OTHER QUESTIONS ARE IRRELEVANT TO DAY.
THOMAS KUTTIKANDATHIL.
A few more questions to Georgy. May consider this as an addition to Dipu's questions.
1)Who spoke Syriac first in Kerala?
2)Who brought vestments that your priests are wearing?
3) Who taught you about Christ?
4) Who taught you about Canons?
5) Who taught you how to live in christian faith?
6) Who paid Airtickets for Bishops who came from Antioch?
7) Who spend money for building churches in Kerala?
8) Who gave the design for your churches?
9) Who gave you the prayers?
10) Who gave you all that you enjoy in your church today?
Don't forget this is why we say A
Ammaye maranallum Antiochyayee marakoolaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
One more thing Georgy. Is your faction a Christian Church. Look at our church, we have 'Christian' in our name. You people are confused with your name.
Can you show the evidence of St.Thomas arrival in India like boarding pass issued or disembarkation card or passport etc.
Which Bible you people follow. Do your church approve our Very Rev.Kuriyamparambil Kaniyan Korepiscopa's Bible?
Do you know where you get the wood to make Tabeletha and who gave the measurements to make them?
You people took lot of time to canonise Vattasseril Thirumeni, setting up committee etc. In our case, one Kalpana 2 minutes and we get one Saint. Why you people complicate things.
Why can't you guys consider as we brothers and you as sister?
You don't like being women. Isn't it.
Remember HH Patriarch Zakka Iwas sitting on the original THRONE of St.Peter made by him. Pope Benedict sitting on duplicate chair.
Which chair you approve?
Did St.Thomas bring Throne to India. There is no evidence. Then how can you people sit on his throne?
Mr Dipu
We do not need any recognition from you as an ignorant and heretic man!Can you show any evidence from Bible regarding throne of St.Peter in Antioch?
What is Canonical and non Canonical? can a ruler of a country/nation has got any power or authority to remove a Spiritual leader or Bishop from his spiritual position in what capacity?
You first syudy the Original Hoodoya canon of BarHebrew not kappi Canon By Kurien Chor Episcopa!regarding Bible,more than St.Peter,St.Paul had written epistles! St.Paul rebuked St.Peter by face by face(Gal 2:11,12)regarding kosher foods! St.paul was not ordained by St.Peter!
St.Peter was an elder among other elders of Church(1 Peter:1)St.peter is not head of earthly church of Christ!
SOC head in Damascus is not Supreme head of Universal orthodox Church as there is no UNIVERSAL ORTHODOX SYRIAN CHURCH! SOC is Only a Regional or Local Church like any other Oriental orthodox Churches!
SOC partriarch of Antioch has no power in declaring anybody as saint in Malankara!If you read various epistles written by St.paul clearly says who is a Saint!
You Don't know even how early apostles had written letters in early Church!
Why did your church hirearchy in Malankara hide letters/bull/Kalpana of Zaka I partriarch in 1996 after Supreme court verdict?How can you talk on behalf of Zaka I?
in the history of malankara orthodox Church There is No Catholicose named Baselios Marthoma Paulose!
regarding throne you are such ignorant person read Bible Mathew19:28,Luke 22:30;Revelation4:4-10, 3:21 etc There are no thrones for any Apostles on earth!The Throne of Lamb of God,Judjement thrones and Throne of Lord/ God are in bible!
MOSC itself is an oriental orthodox Church,as we do not need any recognition from JSOC in Malankara or SOC in Antioch!
The Head of Church is Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ did not appoint a single ,supreme head in his church on earth!
There is no Universal synod,or Common synod met and declared that Syriac orthodox bible as canonic bible/official bible of orthodox churches!The Bible was not originally written in Syriac language!
Dear Mohan Mathew,
You said there is a problem in JOSC USA Archdioces (Beteen HG Tithos and HB Catholicose), but actually the pboblem is not created by HB Thomas I, but like in IOC some HGs think they are superior to the established institutions. Yes, USA is under Patriarch because when it was formed Patriarch thought the division in Kerala would not occur in USA, but one of JOSC bishop cheated the Patriarch and joined IOC. before the current HG Thithos, USA was served by Ivanious of Kandanandu, but was lately withdrawn at the behest of HB Thonmas I because in Kandanadu church only native (idavaka) bishop can entenr the church.Ivanious is from kandanadu. After that HG Thithos is ordained and apponted for USA. However, majority priests and laymens have complained to HB that things are not going well and smooth in USA diocese.
You IOC people don't enjoy of this develpments because a joint Malnakra-Syriac synod is going to be held in mid-next year and all this willl sort out the way HB abolished Arch-Diocese of Greater India. Then Bishop of Archdoicese of Greater India was running a paralal Cotholicate in Outside kerala, but majority of priests and Laymens were against such activitieas of the bishop and they complined to HB Thomas about it (I was one of the preson of a group who met HB about the problem). Finally Archdioces has been aboplished and divided into three dioceses.
Similarly HB Thomas I Catholica has enough courage and capability to resolve the issue in USA, Especailly HB commands hundred percent support from Jacobite community to do things what he whishes and has full confidance upon HB by the Patriach of Antioch.
So don't get exited and overjoyous about the problem of USA. Be catious about the inter-rivalry of Bishops on the one side, and between Catholocose Paulose II and a group of bishops in MOSC.
Dear Joshi
True Orthodox Chrisitians in Maalankara are not overjoyous about the problems of Jacobite brothers of USA whom we consider as part of our Church. But we know why and how these things happen and are really pained at it.
In Matthew 26: 52 we read:
"All who take the sword (for wounding or cutting) wil die by the sword". Christ our Master told PETER just before that "Put your sword back in place"
Dear Joshi, Dipu and others,
This has got a spiritual meaning... Jacobite leaders who believe Peter and his successors as the Head of the church are clamouring for cutting the Malankara Church into two pieces. Remember Christ's words.. It will not stop one cutting. It will go on till the part (of the group which lifted the sword) is CUT AGAIN...
Dear Orthodox Brothers
We should be clearly convinced about UNITY and we should treat all Jacobites as part of Church. od wil see it and bless the Unity.
Church is Christ's Body... it is FIRE.. DO NOT YOU THINK YOU CAN GET AWAY EASILY AFTER DOING IT...
We are fighting for UNITY .. adn Go dwil reward us.. Whether in US or anywhere if Church is cut it is bad...
But stil why I mentioned it? .. I said it to prove that all those who demand divsion are themeselves weakening and there is GOOD HOPE FOR UNITY as demanded by the Malankara Orthodox Church.
Dear Mr Joshy
I believe you are treating the problems affecting the US Jacobite church very ligtly. But as our topic is different I would not go deeper into that.
Mr Georgy has suggested a wayout to build confidence among all and we should limit our discusison to that.
There is hope for church unity as the majority of both Jacobite and Orthodx faithful are peacelovers. They are already praying togther in many of our churches. That can be extended to priests initially and then to all bishops leading to acceptance of eachother.
Therefore, we have to create a mood for forgiveness and acceptance. Ths is possibel when we think about FUTURE GENERATION. Let us think more about FUTURE THAN ABOUT THE PAST.
Thank you Georgy, you brought up some of the truth of the Supreme Court verdict. Moolayil Corepiscopa was playing cards that he could cheat many by telling lies. He is the 'editor' and 'author' of all the articles in that "Viswasa Samrakshakan"(a publication that contains full of non sense. One can easily understand the kind of personality he holds. This antiochia people are they not ashamed of this kind of church leaders, I wonder how can they tolerate them?
No, Mr Ravi George , What I said is very much related to some of the Issue Mr. gregory brought out that he said” Meanwhile, dissension has raised its head within the Jacobite faction over its ties with Damascus. The flashpoint is North America”, and again he says” A unilateral announcement that laity of the Malankara Orthodox Church in all
outside Kerala dioceses, except North America and Brahmavar, have the freedom to invite Jacobite priests to solemnise weddings in our churches”. What does it mean (A detailed explanation was given to Gregory’s arguments byMr. Dipu in ICON forum, so I don’t go detail into it).
Here Gregory tries to prove few things, first he unscrupulously tries to negate the role of Patriarch of Antioch by saying that Malankara Church (united) should not have any role with the dioceses which directly comes under the Patiarch (USA and Brahmawar), why? Are they not the offspring of Malanakara Makkal?
Secondly he tries(mischievously) to prove that another division will occur in Jacobite Church in due course. What is he aim for? Why does’t he talk about un-accounted case which are being floated in various courts”. Shall he have the courage to tell the MOSC leadership that withdraw all the cases and let us sit on both side of the table and discuss and make a formula about unity (because majority of the cases are in the districts of Ernakulam and trichur, where majority of the disputed churches are under Jacobites custody).
Without a concrete formula no unity will takes place, and Greogry’s argument doesn’t have any merit for unity.
Unity among the Orthodox and Patriarch group is not possible till the death of Thomas Pradhaman of the Patriarch group and Severios metran of Orthodox group as both are very strong/cunning/ crooked in their dealings.There are possibility of unity after the period of Thomas Pradhaman as a good number of metrans of patriarch group are eagerly waiting to join the orthodox group.gevarghese philexenos,thomas thimotios,joseph gregorios,abraham severios,.... are some on waiting list.Those hunger for seat and position will be always against unity.Let us watch and see in the next one or two years.
Dear Thomas,
Your dream is something like "malarpodikkarante swapnam mathram ", and is a wishfull thinking. Nothing is is going to haapen in Jacobite Church after HB Thomas I period. You must understand that how did the current jacobites continue from 1912 to 1958, the same people and almost the same churches (except few semiraies that were "captured" by IOC) only are under HB Thomas I and they will rremain so loyal to the Patriarch of Antioch after HB's demise. A few years of unity occured but they lately realised that IOC people are actually wolves in the sheep's skin.
And you talk about few bishops, then why did Mor Severious return to Jacobites after a few years of dangling. What role are there for Mor Milithious of Mannuty and Athanasious in IOC now. Why IOC leadership has not promoted Mor Nicholavos of USA to a full fledge Bishop, he is still an auxiliary bishop for almost 15 years and working uder a bishop(real IOC) so junior to him. Why is it so, doesn't he have God's grace?
When the Kerala High court had suggested for an out of court settlement both the groups welcomed the suggestions,but within no time Thomas Pradhaman instigated the patriarch believers for a rebellion against the orthodox group in one way or the other.Hello Pradhamans followers is it Christianity.There are many such fools in both the groups because of which the honest offerings are wasted in court cases which is a great boon to the advocates.Let us stop all this and get separated.Those with majority rule that particular church of that particular area, for which judiciary should seek the edavaka register scrutinize and decide as to who will be the ruler of the disputed parish.
Dear Sirs
How many of us could predict the fall of USSR, or the fate of that broken wall that once divided the two Germanys?
Could the first century people imagine that the mighty Roman emprire would be obliterated?... This list is endless..
Mr Joshy and some of our brothers (both Orthodox and Jacobites camps) think UNITY is impossible...
Nothing is impossible with GOD...
The day of UNITY in Malankara is not very far... This will happen not because of the will or power of Orthodox or Jacobite belivers, but by the will of HUSBAND of the CHURCH, CHRIST. ...So the right question is: " What does our Lord wants? UNITY or DIVISION? PEACE OR QUARREL? Dignity of own culture or imposition of outside culture? Freedom or Slavery?...
Joshy belives that HB Thomas Thirumeni gets 100 per cent support from the Jacobite faithful for his moves (to divide the church & other things) Dear Sir.. I know the undercurrents in the Jacobote Church... The majority of them are peacelovers who want UNITY. But as St Paul said some of our people will not believe though it is in the word of God very clealry. For them any amount of argument won't help.. the only hope is to WAIT and WATCH things unfolding before us.
During the course of church history, many churches have HELPED or RULED far away chuches... They must also have anointed bishops with absolute slavery SALMOOSAS too... But that is an not excuse for contnuing their domination...Freedom is given by our Lord and no human can take it away by giving or taking signed documents like salmoosas.
Just like nations achieved political freedom in the last century, nations will achieve spiritual freedom... This will happen in Catholic Church, and in all other churches also...
How long your people will shout "Ammaye marannalum Antiocheaye marakula?"... The voice has become very feeble now, rather I don't hear it now ... I can say well that the next generation of Jacobites will not sing this slogan.
THE FUTURE THINKING WILL BE THIS: WE WAN HAVE EXCELLENT RELATIONS WITH ALL CHURCHES INCLUDING ANTIOCH BECAUSE CHRIST'S BODY IS ONE...But we cannot be a slave to any others nor do we want to be masters of foreign churches. CHRIST IS LORD
Dear moderators,
Please remove Dipu George's 12 questions to a separate thread where I may attempt to answer him as and when I get time. This thread is about peace. Let's not defile it. Dipu pretends to want war, but considering the shrillness of his voice, may settle for a Chevalier title. We have a duty to fast-track the process.
I am neither a supporter of Patriarch or the Orthodox group,but I underline and say again that the main cause of destruction comes from Thomas Pradhaman and believers who are innocent to a certain extend but are instigated by Pradhaman himself who tries to be very innocent.Similarly there are some foolish priests of the Orthodox group acting in the same way like that of Pradhaman.They are doing all these for fame and popularity in their group.I know a few of them from Aluva-Angamali-Trisoor regions.Bro Joshy why are you worried about the American Bishop,he knows how to adjust with the Orthodox bishop with all respect.Now mannum charee ninkonde ninnavan peninea kondea pogum means Gregorios and Coorilos of Independant Orthodox Church in Amayanoor will have more believers throughout India.
DEAR INNONCENT & DIPU ,
BOTH OF YOUR QUESTION R GOOD of no uses .R U FAITHFUL TO BRITISH BECAUSES WE STILL FOLLOW THEIR SYSTEM (RAILWAY POSTAL DEFENCES ). CAN WE KEEP QUEEN HAS HEAD . OR R U REALY INDIAN YOU DONT BELIVE IN INDIAN HISTORY YOU BELIVE FOREIGN FATHERS THEORY WHICH SUIT THEM. INDIAN COURT WILL NEVER GIVE JUDGEMENT IN FAVOUR OF A
FOREIGN HEAD .
Dear Dipu George
You Proud Jacobite,Could you answer please give the following rather than asking Georgy some irrelevant non christian,and heretic, questions and concealing the truth(true faith in Jesus/teachings of Christ))
When did this faction came in (start)Malankara?
how was the name christians in Malankara were known before Coonan Cross oath/Udayamperoor Synod?
when did Malankara Jacobite Church get official Bible and in which synod they approved it?
Earlist record of throne of St.Peter in Antioch and the ordination done by Peter in early church quoting from Bible?
Has Tabletha was in use during Instituition of Holy Qurbana by Jesus in Upper Chamber of Mark's House?
Did Jesus appoint any single as supreme head in His Church,when and where?
What Happened Elias III who came in Psuedo for peace in Maklankara but never did any peace here?
How did Abdulla become Partriarch which Universal synod approved It?or what canon did he follow to become partriarch?
Why did Abdulla Partriarch join Roman catholic Church and how and when which synod or partriarch cancelled his Ex-communication?
Why did not St.Peter preside the first synod in Jerusalem?
How Come Coptic Church Use St.Mark's throne and succession in Egypt or Alexandrea?
Check Holy City as per revelation of John, how the wall of Holy city Jerusalem is being constructed?
Liturgy of SOC being used now did not originate in Antioch,how come you people claim then Liturgy came from Antioch?
awaiting your response
@moderators
Please remove all posts from immature people, like Dipu George.
Let Mathew or some other matured person from the Jacobite side lead the debate, from their side.
1. Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church also called Indian Orthodox Church
2. The first known usage of Throne of Marthoma is in 1301.
Further Reading:
http://www.malankaraorthodox.tv/Varghese%20John/st%20thomas%20throne.pdf
3. When did Jacobites get a Malayalam bible? Before that what were they using?
The church is the process of coming out with an Orthodox Bible.
Kurian Kaniamparambil Achan came out with a Malayalam bible, good
appreciated. What has it got to do with us?
All the songs used in Orthodox Church, from Sunday service, to wedding ceremony to services for the departed and what not and what not are translated from Syrian to Malayalam by a humble man called CP Chandy Sir. Kaniamparambil Achan’s work is not any greater than that. If you want to know why, try to find on your own. Do something productive, rather than wasting it on SOCM.
4. I don’t understand what you want to say.
5. Spiritual head of IOC, as defined in the constitution, with no temporal powers.
6. Sure, if your atrocities against IOC members in north also stop.
7. Havent your father and mother taught you, how to respect elders? Next time if you use Vattasheril here, you had it from me.
Vattasheril Thirumeni was ordained by Patriarch Abded Aloho in Jerusalem. The church during that time, believed that Patriarch Abded Aloho was the canonical bishop. His jumping to Uniate Catholic Church and the politics he played together with Muslim authorities, were not of immediate knowledge in Malankara. However there was one malayali who was in Syria as a deacon and had first hand knowledge of all these politics, he was later Augen catholica bava.
8. Indeed SOC is a sister church to IOC, both members of Oriental Orthodox family, which the whole world knows. I don’t know what you are saying
9. If you have problems, keep it with you, and ask the jacobite family from Mulanthurthy who prayed at Vattahseril thirumenis tomb for 4 years and had a baby on the birthday of Vattasheril thirumeni.
( MOTv can you please republish that miracle)
10. Already intercommunion is happening, there are 1000’s of jacobites who commune at Parumala.
11. Do we every time be reminded that our catholicos belongs to our church?
12. Phrase your question in a way people understand.
No more replies to any of your postings. Let someone mature from Jacobite church come and post, we will reply.
Mr Georgy has done a very good job - a route map for establishing PEACE in the Malankara Church for our FUTURE GENERATIONS. The challenge before us is to implement this action plan.
I read almost everyday Jacobites calling for peace. Peace cannot be true if it gives only instant satisfaction. Peace comes out of an a long lasting solution.
We have to consider the future of Church in India. Please come to reality. We can NOT forever revolve around the Antioch Church.
Peope who say Antioch is there to potect us for ever, live in a fool's paradise.
Some others think that dividing the church into TWO will solve all the problems. This will only crop up new issues.
Future generations will be less and less interested in sectarian fights and there will be more inter-church marriages between both factions. If some people think they can divide the church, it is not going to last...
DIVISION WILL NOT LAST
As time advances, the church will slowly merge...Then, after a decade, Antioch will not be able to play any role in Malankara.
UNITY IS PERMENANT
If the Antioch take the initiative to UNITE the CHURCH in Malankara, the good relations will only flourish..
Dear Jacobite brothers, It is in your advantae to unite the Church.
Dear All
To conceal the truth is a serious/deadly sin!Exactly the same is followed by this guy called Dipu George!again PRIDE,ENVY are also there in his behaviour!Yet he is there blaming others!let him examine himself and rethink his nature/behaviour and attitude! How can he judge MOSC with his Jaundice affected eyes!
@ Joshy
Dont assume that the whole Malankara church is overjoyed with the happenings of USA diocese of SOC.
Only people who read MOTv knows about the events in America.
Other church media of IOC do not publish anything with reagrd to this.
So please dont think, that the whole IOC is rejoicing over some rubbish thats happening.
First we should be clear why should have unity before we set out to think HOW.
WILL DIVISION BRING PEACE in Malankara?
History of POLAND teaches us a good lesson. Before the communist rule in Poland, workers were told by comunist leaders to fight the business owners because they were "expoited". So the workers worked less, cheated their employers, finally paving the way for the communist rule. Now when their rule began, the comunist leaders told workers to WORK HARD and produc emore. But they continued to work less, the same strategy which they used against the capitalists. One kio of Apple meant only 850 gms, the practice they learned during the agitation.
Jacobites are told to fight because PEACE means Unity. So they are encouraged to fight to make cause for division. What will happen once the church is divided. There will be new causes for waging war...
Look at our neighbour Pakistan. they got a nation based on religion. But Pakistan still faces an uncertian future where as India emerged stronger.
Weakening position of Antioch, marriages, Orthodox faith, theological advancements, family bonds, youth movng away from villages .etc. will all make the wall of separation between the Jacobites an Orhtodox crumpble. SO artificially created DIVSION IS NOT GOING TO LAST.
Unity and love will only bring lasting peace. Therfore, let us consider Georgy's proposals for peace.
As more UPDATES about the events taking place among Jacobite in USA are emerging, thanks to MTV, it should serve as a lesson for all Jacobite brothren in the Indian subcontinet called as the Archdiocese of Greater India. It is very much parellel to the history of the Malankara Church.
Dear All
Most of Oriental orthodox Churches at present known as with Regional/Local/state /or nation's name.However this self appointed and selfclaimed spokesman of Jacobite Church Dipu George is trying to Achieve what when he brings baselss and irrelavant questions to the context/topic blog presented by Georgy S.Thomas!
Is he really a Malankara Jacobite or heretic jacobite who has no idea of Christianity and basic principles!He should first of all know that Christ promised 12 apostles judgement throne on his second coming to judge 12 tribes of Israel!
None of the early Three Nicene/Ephesus/Constantinaples Common/general(ecumenical) synods were presided by any Antiochean Partriarch or SOC Partriarch!
Moreover SOC was only a local Church on the eastern part of Roman Empire!Antioch or SOC partriarch has no connection in Malankara until or prior to A.D. 1653!
Even In Persian Church there were no connection with SOC/Antioch until A.D. 620!during A.D.628-649 Mar Morusso was Mafriana of Thigris, consecrated by Partriarch Antioch.The Syrian exodus under Knaithomas(present Knanaya)took place A.D. 345 when Persian Church catholicate Mar Semeon Bershebe (A.D.337-350)and by then persian church was not under Partriarch of Antioch/SOC!
Dipu,We IOC/MOSc are not liars! Those who lied and court declared as Saint/Holy, Liar witness as your Holy father, representative of Antioch Partriarch in Malankara, Mar Julius!for fabrications/manipulations and fake and for forged documents submitted to court by Mar Julius together with Jacobite heirarchy by then!
Don't try to fool us here!History and Bible teachings were manipulated by your heirarchy!It is all people like you are against unity/peace in Malankara church!
mohanmathew:
You seems to be extremely thrilled about some internal issues currently facing the Syrian Orthodox faithful in America. It is interesting to consider if you would have been equally in a celebratory mood during the tenure when your late bishop Makarios created a parallel dioceses in America. Yes, for several decades and only upon bishop Makarios's passing was your IOC diocese in America unified. There were back door ordinations and picketing and even all out brawls during this time in America. So was this also pararel to the history in Malankara you so earnestly want to teach the faithful Jacobites in India. When all those problems were being created I didn't see any Jacobite Media covering that news, so honestly please save your lessons and history lessons for your little faction of dissidents and keep making up your history and I assume as the decade passes we will be able to see new history written about the IOC with wild stories of Nestorians ruling here. What a joke!! Here is to you
Robin J Mani
@ Robin
When you start reading books written by historiansm, rather than priets from your faction, you will know, whether nestorians ruled here or not.
I pity your sense of history, when 99% of the secular historians, with proof authenticate, the history of nestorianism, in india, its only a bunch of jacobites like you who live in dream world.
Try to read, secular books. Also erad this wikipedia article,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_(East_Syrian_Ecclesiastical_Province)
largely written by a British historian, David Williams
And now sit at your home and think, what was the litury followed in Malankara till the end of the 17th century.
@Robin
Your information that the Late Makarios Thirumeni created a division in the US Orthodox Church is news to me. Bishop Makarios belongs to my family and he is grandfather's cousin. Your info that the factions suddenly 'got UNITED' is also another interesting news to me.
I understand from your comment that you read only Viswasasamrakshakan. Or else how could you miss reading the recently launched publication of the METRAN KAKSHI journal 'VOICE OF THE AMERICAN JACOBITES' and another article by Joseph Kuriappuram, New York.
'VOICE OF THE AMERICAN JACOBITES' has just released its 3rd issue and a link is availabe on this site now.
PATRIARCH KAKSHI is neither sitting idle. They have published an FAQs to educate the Jacobite laity. You can request a copy from your US Bishop Yeldho Mar Thithos who reports directly to Patriarch bypasisng HB Thomas bava. It was read by all malnkaraorhtodox.tv readers.
Try this link
http://www.malankaraorthodox.tv/puthenkurisusociety/voiceofamericanjacobites_III.pdf
Please read about the UNITY in the Jacobite church
mohanmathew:
Well the fact that you are related to the late bishop Makarios, does not make the information I provided inaccurate. Also by all means you can ask any IOC priest, official, or laity what was going on here previous to Bishop Makarios's passing. Even ask your current bishop Barnabas. My information was not from any Jacobite Media but rather from living in America for the past 25 years. I witnessed it and know many many people who were on both sides. Please lets not even began to divulge into those epic stories regarding your "grandfather's cousin" and what was going on in America. We all know how the IOC feels about Bishop Makarios and the drama that occurred in your catholicate aramana
Fyodor:
I am not impressed by your little wiki leak link, which was probably posted by you or someone of your elk. Also please when you believe different history make sure you have some evidence and not only man made stories. I do not claim that nestorians had a presence and even influence, but there was also syrian orthodox influence also, don't confuse culture and church, many east syrians were syrian orthodox, that was the case of why the Maphrianate was created. Bottom line I am not convinced that some protestant English man could ever truly understand the complex east christian world. but by all means please continue to grind you axe. Your former bishop ivanios of the reeth wrote a book why the malbar christian were not nestorians, take a look when you get some time. I read many secular books and have talked to many experts. So, please don't try to tag me as narrow minded because I don't believe what was created in Devalokam or don't subscribe to your faction's authority.
Both of you need to grow up and open your eyes and learn to say other words minus...jacobite and Viswasasamrakshakan
Here is to you both, cheers
Robin J Mani
Dear brothers from Metran Kakshi..
It is really fun watching the confidence being built up here unanimously.. Carry on... I am still waiting to see something really constructive to happen here other than the usual crap being thrown at each other.
By your outbursts against Dipu, aren't you all doing the same thing about which you are accusing him of ? So what Moral high ground are you claiming to accuse him ?
It is really nice to know that still there are people "innocent like a dove" and unaware of the drama which happened in your American diocese..
Whatever.. I am still unable to understand how you are going to build confidence by discussing problems in the Jacobite US diocese.. The discussion itself has gone off - track.. Hope somebody will get it back on track.
Let me tell you what we think about this whiole exercise....
Will you all accept with your whole heart and in all sincerity that The Patriarch is the supreme Spiritual head of this church ? And also will you all accept with the same sincerity that Malankara chruch and the SOC are one and the same church ?
And don't do that bcs the 34 Const. says you to do so..... Don't do that because the supreme court told you so.....
Do that because you belive in that.
This is the only CBM you can do presently.
God Bless you all !
Dear Sam,
You have made some factual errors in your message... This is the problem with me.. I am a earnest student of Church history especially the first five centuries and Patristics. Maybe thats why I just cannot tolerate when someone lies on public forums.
1. The original oriental orthodox churches are not known as local identities.. They are Coptic and Syrian churches. The national identity became an issue in OO community only in the second half of the 21st century starting with the Ethiopians. Even Vattasseril thirumeni did not envision a national church based on ehtnic identity. He was only for full autonomy and not autocephaly.
2. The throne that Christ promised the Apostles has nothing to do with the thrones that we are discussing in Malankara today. These thrones are considered to be the source of priesthood and unbroken apostolic succession.. Can you show that in the case of St. Thomas throne in India ?
3. The I council at Nicea was presided over by St. Eustathios of Antioch first and then followed by St. Alexander of Alexandria. The II council at Constantinople was presided over by St. Meletius of antioch and St. Thimothy of Alexandria on different days..
4. Antioch was not a local church. It was huge and included Persia, Armenia, Georgia and Cyprus.. Later these were made independent by later councils due to administrative and political reason. Regarding Malankara, we just dont know what was the sttate of Malankara church in the first four centuries other than some assumptions. But the assuption that there was no connection between Antioch and Malankara prior to 1653 is fgar fetched and contrary to available facts.
(sam cond.., )
5. That there was no connection between Antioch and the church in Persia is another far fetched assumption. Facts are on the contrary. In 345 when the syrian Migration happened, the great Metropolitan of the east was a subordinate of the Patriarch of antioch.. Try to get a good commenatry on the Council of Nicea to brush up your knowledge.
6. Lying and finding unethical means to achieve something has happened all around. I will give you 10 examples from Metran kakshi. But to what result ? Will it change anything ? Please don't depend on V C Samuel achens story about Mor Yulios.. He had some other issyue with him and like all cross jumpers, he had to justify his tracheary.. Have you not seen Athanasios and Milithios ?
I am not pointing out the above to score a point or continue to arghue with you. I am just not interested in repeating the same points over and over again. And having had debated with you earlier, I know that you are just not bothered about the truth in what you write as long as you write something. I had to point out the errors in your message. Thats all ! I won't be interested in continuing the argument in this line.
Let us try and build some mutual trust and confidence as the blog says.
Pray for me sinner.
God Bless you !!!
@ Robin
1. If you know how to operate wikipedia, check the history and see of any of our elk has touched or manipulated any word in the article.
2. David Williams is at present an authority of East Syrian church history and have written numerous books about the Church of East (Nestorian). He completed his theses at Oxford, under the guidance of Sebastian Brock, whom you church have given so much respect.
3. Not every East Syriac’s were Orthodox; there was a very small chunk. The majority joined the Chaldean church after the Schism between Assyrian and Chaldean.
4. Maybe their existed, an Antiochean connection, even I do not want to deny that, however, we do not have sufficient hardcore facts to prove it. But, there are sufficient facts to prove that the faith that prevailed in Malankara was Nestorian. The common liturgy books changed from East Syriac to West Syriac some 200 years before. It was in my church, that the Marthoma Metran agreed with the visting antiochean metrans (Shakrulla Bava) to use some liturgical services like Baptismal services in the West Syriac rather than East. (that is about 250-300 years before) I do not remember the exact year
The conversion from Nestoriansm to West Syriac Orthodox, was a gradual process, in the past 300 years.
5. You being convinced or not, with an English protestant historian is none of my business. All the well known secular books by any historian, apart from recent jacobite and knanaya versions point to the Nestorian connection the Malankara church had. Arguing against is a waste of time.
6. I didn’t call you narrow minded, read my post once more clearly. All the secular books are not written by IOC Develokam, but independent historians. There is an ecumenical group now working in kerala, under a Hungarian professor, about st.thomas Christians, you can find there findings here.
http://www.srite.de/index?id=2&cikk=84
7. Regarding Mor Ivanious, (Ittoop Writer, EA Philip), the time period, when, these people lived, favored clear Antiochean bias. Since in those days, the church inherited a lot from the Syrian church, against the heretical Anglicans, and marthomites, everyone in Malankara had clear bias towards the Syrian Orthodox. All those books are part and parcel of that time period.
Among the three, the only clearly educated person is Mor Ivanious, but history proves that, he was never a person, who uses anything the right way.
@ Mathew
You wrote
"1. The original oriental orthodox churches are not known as local identities.. They are Coptic and Syrian churches. "
That Syrian church was a greek church and has nothing to do with the present Zakka and his followers.
Local peasant syrians fought with the Greek Intelligensia, and created a different church in the 5th century, and offcourse any newbee can claim sucession.
Even I hate it when, people LIE in public forums.
Didnt your study about the first 5 century teach you this ???
Mathew Wrote
"The throne that Christ promised the Apostles has nothing to do with the thrones that we are discussing in Malankara today. These thrones are considered to be the source of priesthood and unbroken apostolic succession.. Can you show that in the case of St. Thomas throne in India ?"
Puthiya kandu pidutham kollam. Ithu aru parazhu thannatha.
Mathew wrote
"The I council at Nicea was presided over by St. Eustathios of Antioch first and then followed by St. Alexander of Alexandria. The II council at Constantinople was presided over by St. Meletius of antioch and St. Thimothy of Alexandria on different days.."
A pavangal ellam greekkar alle?
Avarode adiyitalle ningal swanthram ayye.
@Robin
My information about the vertical split in the Jacobite camp in the US as METRAN Kakshi and PATRIARCH kakshi is first hand information from the Jacobite media, thanks to
malankaraorthodox.tv for providing the link. None of the official orthodox sources reported it. Ofcourse they canot stoop down to the level of viswasamrakshkan, your top journal.
In your post, after I quoted the source, you have not challanged my comments on your split. So finally you admited that the spilt is real.
Now my question is: Will this division be resolved just like it 'suddenly ended' in the US Orthodox camp? I think it will NOT. That is the price you pay for shouting your infamous slogan 'AMMAYE marannaalum Anthyokyaaye marakkola..'
Maybe you are in a better position to answer this since you have spent more time in USA than my years on this earth.
thank you
DearMathew
You may be a student of Church History! It does not matter at all.What is unbroken priesthood and succession?he Priest hood of Christ is eternal!the Succession of apostolic Priesthood of Christ is also eternal!The priest hood of Christ is never centered through one apostle/single apostle in Christ Church.This is Jacobite's heretic teaching that Priesthood is converged throuh in Churh st.Peter!
Regarding Church identity,refer acts of apostles,and varius epistles of St.Paul/st.Peter and book of Revelation !everywhere early churches were known as in the name of Local Place or identity!
The way you are stressing that Persian Church was under authority of Antioch during A.D.345 is totally baseless and have no evidence in the early Church History!These are Stories made by Jacobites people in Malankara for their own existence and claims!
Can you give any evidence that The Bishop who came with Knai Thomma /syrian exodus consecrated any priests in Malankara?Or if that was the true case as per your claims Why Did Antiocheans never came to Malankara or they did not have connections here during 2nd centuary to 14th centuary?
Antioch was only a province in early roman empire! Church of Prsia/Armenia was not under Antioch as alleged by
yourselves!You Claim is to Show that Antioch is Everything for Christians around the world!
Dear Mathew I never Called you as a sinner as I am like you! But We may differ in opinion or matters that is human nature or behavior!
The followers of Christ were Called as Christians after St.Paul/st.Barnabas combined team gospel work in Antioch!(acts 11:26)
Dear Mathew
Regarding Factual errors that I committed ,could you please answer to the following!
Has Jesus Christ given any Apostolic Throne in Antioch for St.Peter?
How did James (cousin of Jesus)
become first Bishop of Jerusalem!
Read Acts10:24-26 ,How did St.Peter behaved to Cornelius!Can you show that was the attitude of any Partriarch of SOC in Malankara?
St.Paul and and team went through towns they delivered to the believers the Rules decided upon by the Apostles and Elders in Jerusalem and told them to obey those rules(acts 16:4)Early Church rules were passed by Jerusalem Church not Antioch!
Tell me when Facts are there concealing them and tryuing to misguide believers are right?
Dear Mathew(factual errors cont'd)
The First Epistle of St.Peter Clearly and Precsiely mention the early see of Apostle(1 Peter 1:1-2)Then 1Peter 5:1 he St.Peter claimed himself as a Co-elder among other Elders of Church!Where Did St.Peter get his Apostolic Throne?
1Peter 5:13 Your Sister Church in Babylon...This means Malankara Church Is sister church of all other earlyApostolic Churches!
The Partriarch title came in use use only in 4/ 5th Centuaries for 4 provinces of Roman Empire!How Come then Partriarch become Supreme Authority of Universal Church of Christ on Earth?
Can we bring the focus of the topic back to the CBMs?
Let me assure Mohan Mathew that I have been a good student of the history of the litigation. The CBMs I suggested, which are to be rolled out in a structured way, should not create any complications.
On the contrary, I think it will have a salutary effect on the perception of the ordinary Jacobites. If they too respond in a like manner, the peace movement will acquire momentum.
A strong and united Malankara Orthodox Church will be a fortress and refuge for the Syriac Church as well as the suffering ancient Christian community in West Asia.
We are living in an era of an India on the ascendant. Instead of we brothers tearing each other to shreds over old animosities which have lost all relevance, let's jointly work together to regain for our battered and bruised Church its true calling as the Mother Church of this country of subcontinental proportions.
mohanmathew:
I never admitted to any split in our archdiocese, this is actually utter nonsense. There is a difference of opinion regarding certain issues and they will be resolved in the proper manner in due time. There is false information being thrown around. Ans your MTV has been reporting on and setting up such blogs to continue the propaganda machine. If certain people release their opinion that is their choice we live in a free society. But as a whole the Jacobites regardless of where we are, stand firm in our faith and loyalty to Our Holy Patriarch and Our Syrian Orthodox Church. So please spare us from your further analysis regarding how a proper diocese should function and sum up all problems and make them akin to chanting a phrase we find meaningful and with proper reverence. You want to see disunity, hatred, distrust, simply gander the way of the cross- jumping bishops, that is their plight in your so called church. The kettle calling the pot black, what a joke! Teaching us about unity?
Fydor:
Simply connecting east Syrain to Nestorians is incorrect. That is a dialect and people from the eastern side would speak that dialect and also have books written in that form. The content is more important. The theological background and position of the church in regards to the faith taught at the first three synods. Cosmos was a coptic preacher who taught in Kerala and I doubt our leaders would not know the difference between such things. Also what rubbish and utter nonsense are speaking in regards to Our Holy Patriarch not being the legitimate oriental Syrian Patriarch and "peasants" forming the a parallel church. Many came from rural areas and were farmers, peasants though, i think not. of course the church was greek because Antioch was a greek city, but had a mix of oriental and greek influence, that is seen even in the present church. If you have such deep seeded vile for the Syrian Orthodox Church go become nestorian and don't follow in your words, "peasants". So sad how people can be so ruthless in speak and show some respect and address the Patriarch as HH Zakka I.
Dear Mathew
About Nicea Synod/council in A.D.325,the historians only say most likely it was presided by Bishop Eustachios of Antioch/St.Alexander of Alexandrea! the reason behind this although Emperor constaine of Constantinaples called for the Synod major part of attendies ( church fathers)belong to Churches of Alexandrea and Antioch!
By Then Persian Church was not under Antioch and aware of the Niceane creed . Persian Church approved the Creed only in A.D.410!
Another issue is this Bar Hebrew was a Catholicate/Mafriana of Thigris during the end of 13th centuary! He was not a native neither from Selucia or Thigris but from Antioch! How could Bar Hebrew write history of Persian church from A.D. 285? Nestore was a Bishop and partriarch of Constantinaples,he was not from Persia! The assyrian church became nestorians A.D.486.
Throne of Pristhood? It is not biblical at all!even in O.T there is no mention of throne of priesthood!Christ is the eternal High priest in the order of Melchizadek!He is the King of Peace,Righteousness!The Glorious Throne of Jesus Christ in Heaven!
How did Apostolic succession St.Paul get as he ordained many people in various places of his mission?
I wonder why the Jacobite Athibrasanam leadership is silent about the issues in American Arthibhadranam.
It can be seen as a wise decision since both ARCHDIOCES are of EQUAL status, under the HOLY SEE OF ANTIOCH who shouldn't intervene in eachother's territory.
The remaining MIROR issues can be resolved through mediation. We have a panel already consisting of ......, ...., ... . ((Metran kakashi has already welcomed the mediation)
Some suggesions before the Peace committee for resolving the troubles
1. Athibradrasanam does not believe that PEACE will be achieved by Unity. So we're always for DIVISION. ONLY DIViSION can brings Peace. Viswasasamrakshakan (Dec 2010) carriees an article on Page 6 'SABHA SAMAADHANACHINTHAKAL' by Mathews Aprem Metropolitan.
Thirumeni belives Peace will not be achieved by UNITY. Following that advice, let us DIVIDE THE AMERICAN ARCHDIOCESE INTO TWO. That will only bring eternal peace. Those who have doubts about the modus operandi can consult Aprem Thirumeni through Viswasamrakhskan.
2. Anoint Archbishop and Patriarchal Vicar of the Malankara Archdiocese in North America as CATHOLICOS of AMERICA, equal in status to that of the Catholicos of Malankara Archdiocese in India. The newly consecrted bishop wil head the BAVA kakshi.
3. Anoint a bishop for the Metran kakshi. This bishop should report directly to the Catholicose (of Jacobites)in India. He will head the METRAN FACTION.
4. Metran kakashi has already launched a very good jounal. 'VOICE OF THE AMERICAN JACOBITES' It is the American edition of Viswasasamrakshakan. Is this edited and designed in Kerala? Maybe using the knowhow provided by Viswasasamrakhshakan. Good Going.. Bibi Sir
5. Churches can be divide between both Kashis on the basis of Majority.
6. SLOGANS
Metran Kakshi: Anthyokyeyum Ammeryeyum marakkola
Bava Kashi: Retain the same old slogan..Ammaye marannalum Anthyokyaye marakkoola.
Independent History of books of Kerala say the Path followed by early Christians in kerala was known as THOMASLEEHAYUDE MARGAM.
The Antioch church follows St Peter's Path.
If Christians in Malnkara had connections with the Antiocb long back, they would have denitely followed 'Keepayude' Margam.
The how can Jacbites say that Antioch Church was here in Malankara from the very beginning? It is ABSOLOUTE RUBBISH rubbish.
Pathrosinte Margam was introduced in India by Roman catholics after the arrival of Portughese in India. Malnkara's Antioch connection started much later
@ Reni and Ravi
GREGORY OF INDIA - late Paulose Mar Gregorios quoted in "SEEMA VARTHA" Oct 1968
"We (Metran Kakshis) in India belong to this Patriachate (ie Syriac Orthodox Church) even if we have our own Catholicose and are autonomous. We have no other source from which to renew our ancient traditions, except the tradition... of Antioch of the Great Syrian Church which once had spread through the length and width of Asia right upto China and Korea"
Dear Dipu
You are totally wrong as History says no SOC( Antioch Church) was extended/Spread upto China/Korea!Antiocheans/SOC never spread any Christianity in the universe!You First of all go and learn history of early Church!
Then write/post comments with proper evidence of support!
Dear Dipu
Thank you very much. No Church can remain isolated in this world. Holy spirit is unifying all the churches of Christ.
In this great unifying process, each church is learning from the other. It is an ongoing proess. It will continue till we grow up to the level of our Lord Christ. It happened in the past too.
You think what we call as Antioch church is purely Antiochean origin? Antioch church grew only by assimilating from other centres of Christianity. [To know more details read GEORGIN MIRROR Oct-Dec 2010 artcile by Fr Dr Johns Abraham Konatt].
We in the St Thoasm tradition too grew by assimilating from Antioch. Though we severly criticise American and other Pentacoastal churches, unknowingly we are learning from them too. Learning from anothee does not mean that we should be a slave to them. Prabably you may not agree with me for using the term 'slavery'. It will take a few more decades for our Jacobite brother to understand it well. Your slogan 'Ammaye marannalum antokyaye marakkooola' is very stupid slogan. I think your young generation is realising it now.
The time has come for we Indians to learn further and grow. It is happening now. Some of us may not accept it now, but they too will follow finally. Anticoh church too should outgrwo its past. Otherwise they cannot survive.
[You study about the Antioch Church also. Remember that there are about 5 independent bishops in Antioch who call themsleves as patriarchs. It is good they accept that we are growing and they 'll have to adjust to changes. ]
But we should always be grateful to Antioch church for helping us in our troubles after the arrival of Europeans. Gregorios Thirumeni said this in that context. It is in the 1934 constitution of our Church. We know it and we are having it in our THUBDEN. I think our dear Jacobite brothers are doing a great favour by continuosly warning us about our links with the Antioch church. So we are bound to keep it. Thank you very much
Hi Dipu
HAPPY 2011 is just round the corner. Lok towards the FUTURE too. Don't ALWAYS KEEP LOOKING BACKWARDS
Reagrds
Mohan
@ Robin J Mani
You are unnecessarily misreading my notes.
As I told prior, there is not even a shread of evidence to connect Syria with Malankara prior to Connen Cross Oath. ( I know few, but they are not concrete)
Whether Cosmos was a Coptic or Nestorian is debatable. As per wikipedia, he had nestorian tendancies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmas_Indicopleustes
I didnt say, that Patriarch Zakka is not legitimate, however for me, the more legitimate bishop for the title of bishop of Antioch is the Greek Bishop of Antioch. Patriarch Zakka is the second and all the others uniates,melkites follows.
Second, I never used the word, 'parallel', and it is history that the present line of bishops ending at Patriarch Zakka, was one formed during the 5th century, wanting autonmy and autocephaly from Greeks.
I wonder why, the Syrians do not agree to the same, when demanded by Indians.
I dont have any vile for the Syrian Church, however, I dont understand why some Indians, are so anxious to clamour for some arabs, throwing dirt at there own fellow brothers.
None of the IOC says, that the throne of St.Peter never existed, and that Patriarch Zakka and his followers are ill-worthy to the throne of St.Peter (It is only me who says in THIS forum about the 5th century spilt, and I have not read, that in any IOC publications).
However, I dont understand why the Jacobites are so much nerve-wracked about the throne of St.Thomas. It was St.Thomas who preached in India and not St.Peter. Give proper respect the the disciple who got martyred here. If we dont then who else would?
Since Mr. Georgy, has mentioned about sticking to the point, am stopping, and not replying even if provoked.
@ Mathew
You said,
"Lying and finding unethical means to achieve something has happened all around. I will give you 10 examples from Metran kakshi. But to what result ? Will it change anything ? Please don't depend on V C Samuel achens story about Mor Yulios.. He had some other issyue with him and like all cross jumpers, he had to justify his tracheary.. Have you not seen Athanasios and Milithios ?"
I didnt want to reply to any of your notes, but this one made me do it.
I didnt want to reply to any of your notes, but this one made me do it.
You were never a contemporary of VC Samuel Achan.You dont have any direct association with Mar Athansius and Mar Meletius. In fact you dont know all the three, and when infact, when someone moves out of your fold all the nonsenses about them also pop up.
The forged document of Mor Yulios being rejected in the court and you loosing one suit is part of history. If VC Samuel Achan was lieing, then the court too should be lieing. Please understand that throwing dirt at well-known priest is no good for you especially when you have the same background.
Recently a ramban achan from our side, became bishop in your church. I dont see most of our people jumping around to throw dirt at him. Infact there was ceratin outburst when the news was leaked and now nothing. Even after many years you people are after Mar Athanasius and Mar Meletius, that shows how you are controlled by your media.
Have you ever read, what was the intentions of Mar Meletius and Mar Athansius ? Apart from hate messages and false allegations against them in your yellow jounals? They were people who stood for unity after the 1995 court verdict, like your perumpallil thirumeni.
Mar Athanasius, is presently writing an in depth article in Kandanad Diocean Bullitean.
http://malankaraorthodox.tv/kandanaddiocesanbullettin/
Without even learning and understanding them, if you keep pouring allegations against them, then you deem answerable.
Mathew said,
"I am not pointing out the above to score a point or continue to arghue with you. I am just not interested in repeating the same points over and over again. And having had debated with you earlier, I know that you are just not bothered about the truth in what you write as long as you write something. I had to point out the errors in your message. Thats all ! I won't be interested in continuing the argument in this line."
This is the basic problem, everyone tries to score a point, with the information they get from their yellow journals.
It is time and again proved that we syrian christians do not know how to debate.
So these debates hold no meaning. We should find other means to end mutual mistrust.
So Georgy S Thomas is pointing to such measures, let matured people discuss and try to find out ways to implement those.
Again sorry for deviating from topic. Let someone matured from the Jacobite side take over.
@ Robin
I am sorry for using the word, Zakka.
Will remember not to mention carelessly like before anymore.
Let's try to find some common ground. This is India's time of ascendancy. We are the Mother Church of India. But if we spend our time throwing dirt at each other, we won't ever realise our calling, and will always remain a squabbling, ethnic church in a small state of India.
Only a strong and united church in Malankara will be able to help the Syriac Church, as well as the suffering Christian minority in West Asia.
Had the gift of Saint Thomas' ministry been given to any other community in this country, they would have utilised it properly to benefit everyone. But we are behaving like the man in the parable who hid his talents.
Can Mohan Mathew elaborate on the legal complications which could arise as a result of implementing this CBM?
Perhaps Mathew can find the time to
give a perspective on how the ordinary Jacobites will receive it? After initial suspicions, will people warm up to it?
Thank you Mohan and Reni
" There is no concrete Evidence suggesting Malankara was the India that St Thomas preached".
This is a universal Truth unfortunately.
No matter how much you shout against me the fact still remains.
Apart from the sayings of Historians we dont have any other archaelogical or concrete evidence supporting this claim. Blame it on the Portugese and the Diamper Synod as you will.
Studying Church Architecture proves that the Syriac Orthodox faith is what prevailed here much before the Nestorians arrived.Nestorian connection evolved much later and couldnt even influence the Church Architecture. We do however have imbibed lots of Portugese Influence in our Church styles but they were just additions on existing Church Architecture.
Let me highlight another fact
Werent the Metran Kakshis really ungrateful to write on the Relics of St Thomas gifted and kept at Devalokam that it was given from "Orthodox Church of Mosul"?
Whats stopping you from acknowledging that it was from the Syriac Orthodox Church at Mosul. and for Fyodor FYI it Was The present Patriach of Antioch "HH Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas who discovered the relics of the Patron Saint in India while as a Bishop of Mosul.
The Syriac Orthodox Church is truly universal. We have communities everywhere in the world now and comprises turks, arabs, indians , americans, palestinians, lebanese etc.
I am friends with many non Indian Syriac Orthodox and our mutual respect puts to shame the "Complex" Metran Kakshis have about their Indianness.
We are christian enough to let your bishops conduct Qurbono at the St Marks Monastery in Jerusalem whenever they come to Israel and visit the Place where the Pentecost took place.
Fyodor... it was hatred in you that made you say your feelings about our Patriarch. May God have Mercy on you.
The History surrounding the Metran Kakshis and Gurgan is exactly the same as what happened in 1912.
Mar Athanasios and Mar Militios consecrated Gurgan not for God's Glory but to Harm the Syriac Orthodox Church. In that regard the consecration can be considered diabolic. Would any Metran Kakshis partake of the Eucharist celebrated by Gurgan? if not why?
Paulose Mar Gregorios was a Scholar no doubt but to intepret his sayings wrongly to suit your view point is also meaningless.
The Reethu founder "Mar Ivanios" wrote a book while as a priest ( Fr P T Geevarghese)proving that the Indian Christians were Antiocheans from the begining itself. He also claims the circumstances which led him to the Catholic Church and i dont wanna name names here anymore but try reading his history and you will understand what i am trying to say.
There is a Exemplary work titled "The Hidden Pearl" which speaks about the History of the Syriac Church in this world.
Anyways wishing my Metran Kakshis brethren a Merry Xmas and Happy New Year
In Christ
D George
Dear Dipu
When you talk about relics of St.Thomas,What happened relics of St.Peter and St.Paul?How can you say that Goorgan issue was a repetition of 1912? How Come Abdulla Partriarch become canonical?Under which Canon? Giving more money to Sultan of Turkey and gaining power from Turkey Sultan was canonical in which way?
Can you show any evidence that your Holy antiocheans fathers brought Christianity in India?
You should think twice before making false accusations !
@ Fyodora
How many Coptic Popes lay claim to the See of St Mark? Whom do you consider as the Authentic one? The Coptic Greek Orthodox Pope? Coptic Catholic Pope?
To the Oriental Orthodox Churches Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas remains the True Patriarch of Antioch and Pope Shenouda the True Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church.
Go take your arguments to similar schismatics like you Fyodora
The Coptic Orthodox Church under the Sheouda Patriarchate do recite the name of HH Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas along with their Pope HH Shenouda and Viceversa atleast in the Middle East and elsewhere.
We dont care what the Metran Kakshis think of their Holy Father.
Our Patriarch will never be bound by 1934 Constitution. Period
and @ Georgy
Before any CBM's can be considered dont you think that Trust and Honesty are the foundations on which these Peace Proposals can be Built?
If so then what the Metran Kakshis can do is to legally sign a document removing all cases in the Lower and Higher Courts against the Syriac Orthodox Church in India signed by your catholicos and leadership.
This Honest gesture on your part will pave the way to any peace proposals that can be suggested ( ofcourse respecting the faith and traditions of both factions)
What say?
In Christ
D George
Dear Sam & Mohan,
I am not even going to waste my time on all those blunders that you have written in the name of history.
I will answer all your queries in an appropriate blog.. Not here.. This is just not meant for that.
A note to Mohan,
How do you even know if I know V C Samuel, Athanasios and Milithios ? I am not one who writes something for the sake of it.
Let us not get into that...
Georgy is trying hard to get ack this discussion on track.. Let us support him.
God Bless !
Dear Georgy,
Getting back to the topic..
I had already mentioned in a posting above what is the basic requirement for any unity talks with us... that is, if by building confidence, the ultimate aim is to reach unity.
If not, if CBM's are only directed at peaceful co-existence, things will get more simpler.
Waiting for your views on the same..
God Bless !!!
Dear Dipu
We had already dicussed the issue of Malanlara antioch relation and SOC rite in Malankara nearly 5 months ago in MTV! We Know how when and where it was started! you don't need to tell us that your alleged and false story:- It was Holy Antiocheans who preserved Malankara Church from A.D.52.
These are purely lies of jacobite's has no basis in Malankara Nazrani history!
You honour Antioch more than the Holy father in Heaven! You can continue to do So! However MOSC is not after you guys so stop your wicked/crooked mentality of humilating,belittlying,mocking, abusing us and our heirarchy!
When a bishop bribed the Turkey Sultan and got his position as Partriarch in Antioch,is it canonical?The greed and selfish mentality of your Holy Fathers are the cause of split in Malankara church or the church feud in Malankara ever since more than a centuary back!A Bishop who behaved like Judas Iscariot become Canonical in which way?Coming to the point how come When Paul consecrated and ordained Thimothy as Overseer(bishop)was there any Shamoulsa/stuaticon like Antioch Partriarch used to do?When Jesus gave the thecommandments/authority was there any Stuaticon/shamoulsa signed by the disciples?
You just intruded this blog in order to cause disturbance and hatred and as a Christian your never showed the indulgence or patience/preservance!(To be cont'd)
Dear Dipu
Abded Messiah partriarch was deposed by Turkish sultan! However turkish Sultan has no power to excommunicate him from synod of SOC and his position as Partriarch!
Your Heirarchy and Mar Yulios tried to forge documents to show that he(L/L Abded Messiah) was ex-communicated from SOC synod! However finally the truth prevailed/triumphed. The Mystery surroundingL/L Elias III Partriarch for leaving Antioch,in the name of pseudo peace mission in Malankara(unaccoplished peace mission) are not a secret to Assyrians as well as Malankara Church! I am not dragging that issue now here!
You are wishing(Christmas/new year) MOSC people in your Way of speaking(Methran Kakshi) as like a mocker/wicked counsel not out of your heart but from the lip for what? first you read epistle of 1 Peter 2:1-2 and then try to live like that as a true Christian at least for the time being rather than making lip service!
All Apostles of Jesus Christ are Equal in their position and authority! St.Peter the Pioneer in early church was told to make report of his activies in places where he used to preach Gospel to the Church and elders of Jerusalem!
read acts of apostles carefully,then you will know the truth!
Dear Georgy S.Thomas
all our dicussions/comments are based on past!the real issue is here THE TRUE ROCK:JESUS CHRIST!
If we are able to follow the Real/true rock Jesus Christ all disputes or feud can be settled amicably in the real Spirit of God!
However the Jacobites faction's faith is in PETER/throne in Antioch.As per Jacobite Heirarchy the Simon Peter is the Rock and they Jacobites people give more glory to Throne of Antioch! Not the Throne of Jesus Christ!the Power, glory goes to Throne in Antioch! Unless and until they(jacobites)change their heretic attitude and faith(throne in Antioch) Peace and harmony in Malankara will be Day dream!
@ Samji,
It was the same Patriach Mor Igantius Abdullah who consecrated your Vattseril ( Mar Dionysius) as a Bishop!
If you still maintain that Mor ignatius Abdullah is uncanonical then the validity of the Bishophood of Vattasseril ( Mar Dionysius) is also in doubt!
So be careful the next time you try to belittle late Lamented Patriach Mor Igantius Abdullah
The Late Catholicose Mar Augen while being consecrated as the Bishop of Kandanadu by Late Lamented HH St Ignatius Elias III did write in his Stathithicon that He ( Mar Augen) Abjures Abdul Messiah as he was uncanonical?
Wou you like to contradict what your catholicose did?
and Samji.. you still havent answered my question about the relics of St Thomas kept in Devalokam
@Ebenezer
We the Syriac Orthodox in India honour our saints and the faith of our Elders.
In the Mulanthuruthy Synod where Parumala Thirumeni was the secretary to LL HH Mor Ignatus PeterIII, The last sentence of the resolution signed in that Synod is worth mentioning here
"We, Holding the Cross and the Bible, do promise that neither we, nor our successors would deviate to the left or right from the Allegiance to the See of Antioch".
Let me Quote St Parumala Thirumeni in His Salmooso
"I am always duty bound to submit obedience as is due to the High Priest Hood of HH Moran Mor Ignatius Peter III Patriarch of High Esteem reigning on the Apostolic Throne of Antioch and of All the East as the most ancient Syrian Patriarch of Antioch and of All the East comprising India and Malayalam"
The rest of the Salmooso has been reproduced many times here in this forum and i wish to add that we the Syriac Orthodox Christians abide strictly by what the Saint had written about his Allegiance to the Patriarch and to the See of Antioch. The saint never ever mentioned about any Allegiance to the Throne of St Thomas.
This is the faith of the Syriac Orthodox People here in India. what can we do Samji and Ebenezer.
How can we accept a new Doctrine Post 1912.
We would never dream of contradicting our Saint of Malankara Parumala Thirumeni lest we be hedl accountable during the Day of Judgement.
Do you honour the Saint? If so wont you honour his Salmooso also?
@ Dipu
For the sake of keeping this thread clean, am not bothering to reply you.
However, I will reply if nothing meaningful happens here.
You said, about my "hatred", I dont write in any forum except this, giving replies. Just think about the numerous 'HATE' posts that you fill SOCM forum with.
The versus of Jesus about, Log Eye and Speck, is clearly for you. Read it at home.
As I said, replies will come, if nothing meaningful happens here.
Let Georgy, Mathew and all take over.
@ Dipu
I would like to offer you a different perspective on the relics of the Apostle Saint Thomas. You need not agree with me. But here's a different viewpoint.
The Apostle Saint Thomas came to India to preach the message of redemption, and we are his legatees. He was martyred in this country and was buried here. Therefore, we, his children, are the rightful owners of his mortal remains.
The Edessans thought of Indians as dark-skinned savages, and without showing any understanding towards the possible existence of a community here which cherished his memory, and without showing the courtesy to inform us or seek our permission, stole his mortal remains from India and spirited it away to Edessa.
In the vicissitudes of history, the shrine in Edessa was destroyed, but not before portions of the relics reached several churches, including Ortona in Italy and Mosul in Iraq.
If the Edessans hadn't stolen the mortal remains, it would have remained safely to this day at one location in India.
Now, the reliquary kept at Devalokam does mention that it was received as a gift by HH Catholicos Augen from the Orthodox Church in Mosul.
This is a fair acknowledgement considering that the ties between MOSC and SOC are presently strained. When the ties are repaired, the acknowledgement deserves to be made more explicit.
But, in any case, please remember that we are the rightful legatees of the relics of Saint Thomas and there's no need to prostrate before anyone for giving back a portion of
a treasure which originally belonged to us, and was stolen from here. Self-respect is an important concept for the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church.
@ Mathew
The unity I have in mind is a merger of equals based on mutual respect with clear cut goals for the future towards which everyone's energies can be channelised.
As Churches become smaller and smaller, the role of the clergy increases disproportionately, and that of the laity diminishes. This is not good for the spiritual nourishment of either the clergy, or the laity.
A united and strong Malankara Church can be a real friend of the Syriac Church. This, to me, is what peaceful co-existence is all about.
Once a division is created for whatsoever reason, there remains the potential for future rancour, even if the parting is amicable.
The Syriac Church had a direct role in the split and creation of the Thozhiyur Church. For a while, the Thozhiyur Church continued to enjoy peaceful co-existence with Malankara, or to use the current slogan of the Jacobite leadership, it was a 'Sister Church' of Malankara. I need not elaborate. You are a student of history.
But because the split had happened, there remained the potential for future strains, and this was precisely what Palakkunnathu Mathews Mar Athanasius exploited. Today, the Thozhiyur Church is a camper of the Marthoma Church and no longer a 'Sister Church'.
Until a few decades ago, despite some distinctions, the Knanaya denomination was considered an integral part of the Malankara Church. In fact, for a brief interval during the 1950s, Mor Clemis of that Church even headed the Jacobite faction of the Malankara Church.
Today, for all practical purposes, it's a 'Sister Church'. This transformation has happened right before your eyes, and you haven't even realised its full import.
True to form, the role of the clergy has increased disproportionately in Knanaya denomination. This sisterhood isn't to the benefit of the laity in that denomination, because due to their diminished numbers they cannot dream of having their voice heard by policy makers.
Therefore, the Syriac Church-inspired 'Sister Act' is not agreeable for us. But a strong and united Church in Malankara can be a trusted ally and a good sister of the Syriac Church.
Over to you.
Dear Dipu
It was you who brought the issue of canonical Partriarch!So you must know that The antiocheans never followed any canons for Authority ,power and position!They used to Consecrate ribel catholics in Persian Church and that was the main reason of Hoodoya Canon came in existense!
The relics of St.Thomas has nothing to do with the throne of Antioch!It was not the throne of Antioch who took the relics from Malankara to Eddessa!
Honouring the Saints in Malankara by SOC are just likes the attitude of Pharisees during Jesus Time! read st Mathew23:29-30 ` nothing else!
About your Shamoulsa and Stuaticon issue; you are not follwing basic/fundemental Christian values or principles! First follow Christ!
Then talk about other matters.I did not belittle any your Partriarch! What I said was That He Was Greedy person!As a bishop and supreme head of SOC he was not supposed to be like that!You read the Epistle written by St.Paul to Timothy and compare it with The activities Of L/L Abdulla Partriarch in Malankara!
Read I Peter 5:2-3 regarding the commandment St.Peter gave to Church Elders! As successor of St.Peter did your Holy Father L/L Abdulla follow it?in Malayalam there is a saying "Ashaan pizhachal Eethamilla ". Since the mistakes/errors are done by the teacher or master they are not supposed to be punished!
There is nothing new you drag 1912 here! Don't forget in 1958 the Catholose in Malankara was accepted by Partriarch Yakkob III without any conditions!This means the cosecration of Catholicose by Abdul Messiah in1912 was canonical and right!
Mr.Dipu you as I told earlier are not here to unite people or preach/show peace and unity, you are here to show contempt and hatred that is all you are doing!
Dear Dipu
It is high time to stop your utterences like Throne and Shaumulso as those two has nothing to do here in this blog!St.Peter was one of 12apostles of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ promised 12 Apostles each thrones on his second coming!Jesus did not appoint St.Peter as head of apostles or head of his Church on earth!
Antioch Partriarch of SOC was never appointed as head of Church in India,China and Japan.Antioch Partriarch or his clergy or delegate never preached gospel anywhere in the east including China,India and Japan!!
What are you trying to teach or tell MOSC your alleged/false/baseless/fabricated stories of SOC!You Are not Syrian! You are only and Indian and you will be called by SOC of Syria as an Indian not Syrian!In order to get Heaven or to go heaven, We don't need your SOC certifcate/Antiochean throne recommendation!
Dear Georgy,
The Unity as you envision - a merger of equals based on mutual respect with clear cut goals for the future towards which everyone's energies can be channelised, is the perfect thing that can happen to the Malankara Church.
At the same time, a unity just for the sake of unity will e meaningless. We have our lessons from history.
But I cannot agree with your observation that 'A united and strong Malankara Church can be a real friend of the Syriac Church'... And this is where we differ.
Talking about unity and at the same time advocating just friendly relations with the SOC is in itself calling for division.
I don't know why it is so difficult for the Metran faction to comprehend this reality - We the SOC in Malankara do not consider ourselves seperate from the SOC. And we cannot even think about that.
This is not something being demanded of us from the Patriarchate. This is not something which has been forced down upon us. This is not something which has been imposed on us without our consent. This is something which we have voluntarily submitted ourselves to. It is a part of our faith now.. ( older achayans please don't jump at me ).
Your examples of Thozhiyoor and Balayaar are apt for the occassion. Having studied church history from all perspectives, I cannot understand how you can hold the syrians responsible for what happened. We malankarites took advantage of the old age of one Syrian Bishop and in the case of Balayaar, he took advantage of the confusion and situation that existed in Malankara at that time. I am not going into details because that is not the topic of our discussion.
Any split that has happened in the Malankara church ( except the one with Syro - Malabar ), we were the one's responsible.
Knanaya archdiocese is still a part of the Malankara Church but they are autonomous. Same is the case with Simhasana Churches, EAE and the Honnavar mission.
Georgy, you know very well why the above institutions chose to remain as they are. And the result of that is in front of our eyes. If there is a real and long lasting unity in Malankara, the above can e slowly integrated back.
So in fact, by proposing to unite the church in malankara at the expense of severing the canonical bond with SOC, you are in fact advocating for division and not unity.
Our stance is clear... We can unite.. provided you accept that we belong to the Syrian Orthodox Church of which the Patriarch is the supreme Spiritual head. The Catholicate is a reality and there is no running away from it. The Patriarch has never enjoyed and will never demand temporal authority over malankara ( pls do not generalise what happened in the after math of 1909; there were good reasons ). If this formula of One Church - One Patriarch - One catholicose is acceptable to you, Unity can e achieved gradually.
If no, even discussing any unity formula outside the above condition will be a futile exercise.
Breekh Mawlod d'Moran !!!
Dear Dipu
St.Peter after resurrection of Christ,and after his reistatement by Jesus really repented and lead a simple and humble life as per teachings of Christ in St.Luke22:26-27.He never posed/acted as Supreme among apostles in early church.St.Peter and St.john,St.James were known as Pillars of Church Read Galatians2:9 The Position ,title etc of Partriarch are made creation after 4th centuary!
The Shaumoulsa of Antiochean Partriarch has only its value and significance when they rightly and justly follow the teachings of Christ and preseve the right faith in Christ!Further more It was Not Shaumoulsa and Stuaticon of antiochean Partriarch which made Parumala Thirumeni as a saint!
I would request you to produce a copy of Shamoulsa and stuaticon that St.Peter gave to his successor in Antioch!
@Mathew
Thanks for the reply. I will respond in a while. Meanwhile, wish you and your family a Merry Christmas and a joyous New Year.
PS
Are you Mathew GM with whom I've exchanged posts before?
Merry Christmas and a Happy and Joyous New Year to all those who are participating in this thread. The time you are spending is appreciated. Let's keep the conversation going for some more time. After this is wrapped up, I hope to come out with a CBM-2. We don't want our Catholicate to lose its next 100 years too in litigation and strife. So let's do what little we can to generate some ideas which can be stepping stones to heal the wounds of this battered and bruised community.
@Robin
You said:....your MTV has been reporting on and setting up such blogs to continue the propaganda machine. If certain people release their opinion that is their choice we live in a free society...
Fact: MTV did not report anything except providing a link your own Jacobite sources. The first one was issued by your Bishop Theethos's office in the form of FAQs. In my ealier posts, I had mentioned the the rebel group sources which were severly critical of Bishop Theethos... As you kow this blog was 'bout UNITY and not about DISUNITY. But yor people use every opportunity to disperse the seeds of division and hatred.
You hope for unity in your faction while you want to divide the Malankara Chuch. In Matthew 26: 52 we read, "All who take the sword (for wounding or cutting) will die by the sword".
We know how peacelovers your leaders are! Therefore, we know how this will end up.
Dear Georgy
regarding the Unity Of Two Factions/Churches in Malankara my suggestions are that:-
Let the two sides/factions continue as seperate entity, the way currently MJSOC operate!
However both Factions should stop all public critisism/provoking statements and irrelavant unchristian attacks from both sides!
The Jacobite faction should also stop all their heretic teachings/unorthodox teachings with immediate effect!
The sacrements and Holy Eucharist in Both factions are the same and one!therefore Jacobites should also respect and honour the value Holy sacrements of MOSC and its clergy like theirs! Even the court observed that both factions still preserve the Jacobite faith/traditions!
The cases of disputed Churches/properties should be handled/settled in a Christian Way of principles as suggested by Fr.Punchakkonam in I.O.H or similar way!
MOSC still honour/respect SOC patriarch as per 1934 Constituition! don't forget during Nicene Synod there were two catholicose for Persian church and armenian church who were not under roman empire and the title/position Partriarch came later in after the Constantinaple synod! MOSC is autonomus,autocephelous church!
The infamous bull#203 of L/L Yakkoob III should be voided/withdrawn by H.H. Zakka I,if he sincerely wish peace and harmony in Indian/malankara Church!There is no meaning when they recognise /follow the heretic Bull#203 and remembering St.Thomas in thubden(diptychs) as an Acolyte or laity!
Dear Georgy,
Thank you for the wishes. Wishing you the same. Have a blessed year 2011.
As to your query, No, I am not Mathew G M.
God Bless !!!
@ sam
Dear Sam,
Just as couples who parted amicably later enter into bitter property and custody battles, once a division occurs for whatsoever reason, there remains the potential for future rancour.
The Syro-Malabar Church is comprised of our own people, but we parted in a bitter manner. After centuries, the wounds may have healed, but we've totally forgotten that they are our blood brothers.
We've lost something precious there.
A united Syrian Christian community would have perhaps changed the destiny of Kerala. Since that was not to be, let's try to somehow salvage the unity which we lost in the 1970s.
My observation is that smaller denominations are a burden on the laity. For one, they seem to be dominated by the clergy. History has taught us what destruction can be wrought by clergy running amok.
Only if the laity remain united can their indiscipline and tendency for self-aggrandizement be checked.
At the smallest level, pentecostal/evangelical congregations seem to be thoroughly monopolised by their pastors, who are known to wield total control over every aspect of life of the members.
And for some reason which I cannot explain, smaller denominations somehow do not produce extraordinary achievers from among the laity.
The community as a whole has a role to play in moulding good citizens who are assets to their society, and the country at large.
Correct me if I'm on the wrong track here, but let's keep the dialogue going.
Best Regards
Georgy
Dear Mathew
your posting on23/12/10 you said that my response/comments were blunders(in the name of history) as you will answer to that in appropriateforum/ blog!However I say that there were no blunders that I did! An example recently(recent past) Jacobite Church in Malankara celeberated centenary of "Pampakuda NamaskaraKramam" This centinary celeberation itself is a proof that Malankara Church did not have any ties/relation with Antiochean church from A.D.52to A.D.1653!How come some of your people claim then Malankara Church had connections with church in Antioch from first centuary?Or again this is a Factual mistake or error!
If Antioch Church had relations with Malankara chuch from beginning we would haev followed PATHROSINTE MARGAM...
I read a book KERALAPAZHAMA by Dr Herman Gundert.
It says about Thomayude margam. teh only fstival we had was that of ST THOMAS. In Malankara till teh Portughese arrived there was no KEPHAYUDE MARGAM, only teh tradition of ST THOMS was here. It is absolute proof that we never had any relationship with Roman Church or Antioch Church. THAT IS FOR SURE
I appreciate the open hearted policy put forward by Mr Geogy Thomas. In fact, hardliners fear such people who are interested in studying and listening to the views held by the other group. This is becasue fanatics know that if faithful make an attempt to study, they'll be peaceful and unity will come slowly. Therefor they want people to continue fighting and abusing each other. I pray that let there be one hundred Georgys in both Orthodox and Jacobite camps.
Dear Sam,
And let me repeat.. they were nothing but blunders - half factual errors and the other half imagination taking new forms..
I don't want to address any of those because - 1. It is pointless
2. It is not our topic of discussion.
When there is an appropriate blog, I will be more than happy to contribute.
You jump from topic to topic without any real substance. Sorry to say this.. but you seem to have a tremendous capability to say a lot of things and end up saying nothing.
You just assemble a set of strawmen.. and when they get knocked down one by one, you assemble the next set..
The latest strawman is your relating Pambakuda namaskaram centenary celeberations to Antioch - Malankara relationship..
I am really not interested in such arguments for the sake of it without any substance.
Let us stop pricking at the wounds and keeping them alive forever and start looking for some medicine which will heal this century old wound.
Wishing you and family a very Happy and blessed New Year !
M'shadrenan lokh hubo w shlomo. Eedo Brikho w Shato Hdato.
Dear Mathew
I have already told in Black& white (crystal clear)regarding my stand,peace and Harmony In Malankara Church feud! I did not try to pierce any healing wounds that are already there! In Malayalam there is a saying that" Kannadachu Kanichal iruttu akilla " This the truth!This exactly what you are doing!I am not bringing new straw blocks for you to hit and knockdown as you were not able to defend yourselves so far!Thanks for your Wishes and Greetings and may You also have a Blessed Happy New Year!
@Dipu george
Your comments on blog dated 22/12/10 refers.How Can you tell us What you believe is Universal thruth as you have no evidence in Bible/History /and tradition of church or anything?Can you quote from any source that Malankara Church was under see of Antioch from A.D.52!You have only read history(story suited for Jacobite faction written/made by Jacobites)who has not conducted any research or study like secular historians!
Regarding Church architecture,who did the study,survey,when and where,references are neither quoted or supported in your entirely baseless arguements!
Has St.Mark Monastry in Jeusalem can accomodate 3000 people+120 early disciples +12 apostles in early centuary for baptism with fire and spirit and birth of Christanity in those days?
Finally the sainthood of Vattasseril thirumeni has nothing to do with peace,unity and Harmoney in present church feud in malankara!Your comments are totally illogical and imprudent!
@Dipu George
During judgement day who will account for what? You are not the judge or the counsel?You have not followed the commandments of Jesus!So do not tell others about what will happen because of Shaumulso of Antioch patriarch on judgement day!"DO NOT JUDGE OTHERS SO THAT GOD WILL NOT JUDGE YOU IN THE SAME WAY YOU JUDGE OTHERS"
Moreover could you tell us Which synod appointed Patriarch PeterIII as head of all the east,India and Malayalam,which year where did take place?
MOSC head know his flocks and the flocks also very well aware their their spiritual head and shephard! So there is no need of making letterhead like SOC and MJSOC for sending bulls/kalpanas!
Dear Dipu George
In 1912 there were new no doctrine came in Malankara Church as alleged by you!1912 H.H. Abded Messiah consecrated a catholicose in Malankara had nothing to do with throne of St.Peter in antioch/Damascus!St.Thomas/St.Peter were Apostles of Jesus Christ and they were Ambassadors of Christ!Jesus never gave A throne for St.Peter in Antioch and he was declared as supreme head of Jesus' church on earth!It Is The Theory/Doctrine of Jacobites in Malankara follwoing infamous bull ofL/L PatriarchYakkob III around 1973 that St.Thomas was not a priest he was only a Laity as allegedly Claimed by your Supremehead without any any Biblical teachings, values/evidence or support to declare his dictator ship in Malankara which was totally unchristian and heresy!
L/L Yakkob III were totally disregarding the Epistles written by St.Peter also not following any canons of church!
Dear Dipu George(cont'd)
It was Your Holy Father L/L yakkob III who saidthrough his Bull that St.Thomas was not a priest but only a layman! Then what are you claiming in the relics of St.Thomas? This is The way you respect an Apostle of Jesus Christ who did his Gospel work in Far east,Persia and India ete and died for Jesus in india etc.By remembering St.Thomas in Thubden you are not respecting him but only a lip service to show others or to deceive the faithful/followers of your church!
You people embrace the hands of Holy Fathers or bishops/priests(kai Muthuka)merely not because of celeberating H.Qurbana by them,St.Thomas put his hand/fingers on the pierced/wounded body of Jesus Christ!St.thomas put his finger on the scars of the nails and his hand onJesus side(where soldier plunged his spear on Jesus side) and he confessed"MY LORD And MY GOD" Therefor you people stop your heresy about St.Thomas,who is our Father(Malankara Nazranis)Who is just like St.Peter,the apostle
and Pope/Patriarch of India!We do not need any recognition from Antioch Patriarch or MJSOC regarding the status of MOSC or its patron saint!
January 10, 2011 8:53 AM
@georgy s.thomas
Please refer to SOCM message#19720 of 01/21/2011 of V.T.John as you may send him a response to his baseless claims of Holy see of St.Peter and Throne of Syrian Patriarch of Antioch and ALL THE EAST!until,A.D. 1876 no syrian/antioch patriach used his see "all the east"!
@ Zach Varghese
Their will indeed be no unity.. people who write NONSENSE in SOCM YAHOO forum also should stop spewing venom ...
Compare SOCM with ICON
Compare Vishwasasomrakshakan with Malankara Sabha Patrika
Compare Syriac Voice with MoTV
Check out all the bloody videos on Youtube
And LET ME KNOW, who is spewing venom ?
@Fyodor
Are you making CHRIST who said his Church shall be ONE a thief?
How do you know that that will be no unity?
Let there be fierce discussion in every site and publications. Each and every issue should be discussesd. It is a better trend. These discussions only prove that there exists some bond between both. Understanding will come slowly if we continue these discussions and engagements. Therefore it is healthy. Let the discussions prolong..DON'T WORRY
I am against people who want to make peace somehow and at any means. This will only make matters even worse later.
The Church was united QUICKLY (two times) soon after the earlier court verdicts. So many people were diappointed that this time (1995 Supre Court order) it did not happen, even after 15 years... BUT WHY?
A QUICK merger would have again made matters even worse which would only have led to another split and more cases. BUT GOD REIGNS.
We'll see the enemies of UNITY OF CHRIST'S body put to shame before the actual unity takes place. Even traces of rebellion will also be eliminated by the power of God. SABHA IS HIS BRIDE, our faith is that the Husband Christ will make HIS Bride PURE & PERFECT.
What FYODOR wants is: WE SHOULDN" TALK, PART WAYS AND PRETEND THAT WE ARE AT PEACE.
Let the faithful talk, ask qestions, raise doubts, disagree, clear doubts, come to certain conclusions.. let them engage... let a generation pass, let them engage socially, WORSHIP LORD, let their children marry from both camps... let them move out of their old places, let them educate, Let them study Bible and words of chruch fathers, let them grow spiritually, Let them understand the leaders who misgude them........ LET US SEE IF THERE WILL BE UNITY
Fyodor suggested to COMPARE each.
1. SOCM with ICON
2. Vishwasasomrakshakan with Malankara Sabha Patrika
3. Syriac Voice with MoTV
4. Georgian Mirror with Georgian Voice
Check every aspect
Look at the quality difference
Now decide for yourself
Jacobite wants to stop all relations, all connections, all engagements beween Jacobites and Orthodox. Why?
They know well this will eventually lead to exchange of ideas, exposure of dirty elements, and understanding between the camps. They don't want this to happen.
But in reality, both sides wil engage and thsi will ultimately result in unification. I think that day is not far off
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