Sunday, November 14, 2010

Problems of Malankara Arch Diocese of The Syriac Orthodox Church in North America.



Problems of Malankara Arch Diocese of The Syriac Orthodox Church in North America.
തോമസ്‌ പ്രഥമന്‍ ബാവായും ട്രസ്ട്ടിമാരും  ജനുവരിയില്‍ സ്ഥാനമൊഴിയുവാന്‍ ആലോചന. ഫെബ്രുവരിയില്‍ അസോസിയേഷന്‍ വിളിച്ചു കൂട്ടുന്നു.  കോതമംഗലം പള്ളിയ്ക്കു മാത്രമായി ഒരു മെത്രാനെ വാഴിക്കാന്‍ ആലോചന. വെട്ടിക്കല്‍ നിന്നും പരുമലക്ക് റാലി നടത്താന്‍ പോകുന്നു.

71 comments:

Ravi George said...

'Uppu thinnavan vellam kudikkum' ennu oru chollundallo. Thomas Pradhaman thirumeniyude karyatthil inganeyokke sambhavicchathil athishayam onnumilla.

Nattilum Thomas Thirumeniyude sthithi ottum nallathalla.

Innuu Jacobaaya ennu oru prashthanm nila nilkkunnthu Thomas Pradhaman kaarnam annu. Ithra nannikedu addhehatthodu paadilla.

geevarghese said...

As Orthodox Christians it is not proper to comment on matters of Other Orthodox Churches. This is my opinion.

Would our brothers the Russian Orthodox Church, The Greek Orthodox Church like to see comments about them posted on our website?

Let their faith save them... Malankaraorthodox.tv should instead concentrate on empowering the Indian Orthodox Church people instead of behaving like typical malayalees and interfere in other peoples affairs.
I pray and hope no body else stoops low to start commenting on other peoples affairs. Let us uphold the dignity of proper culture.

T Geevarghese
Paliakara
Tiruvalla

rajan said...

Dear All,

There is a Malayalm phraise "Makanu Sapthathi kashinju, kochumakkalum avarudem makkalum aayi, ennittum valiyamooppeennu thakkolum bhandaravum thalayinakeezhil bhootham nidhi kakkunna pole vittu kodukathirikkukayanu"
Let me ask one question are all the members of this American Church are born from Antioc. They don't need their own identity and don't have any base and root to claim in Kerala and India.

Varghese Mathai
Member SGOC Sharjah

Samji said...

Dear All
The North America Diocese of Jacobite Church in Malankara is a Arch Diocesce of SOC in Damascus.It is not under direct see of H.B.Thomas I whose is a Maphrian of SOC Partriarch,and JOSC in Malankara is also a Arch Diocese of SOC in Damascus!What ever Partriarch in Damascus tell H.B.ThomasI and H.E. Titus in N.America has to follow and obey it!H.B. Thomas I cannot control H.E Titus as H.E.Titus is the Bishop of another Arch Diocese in N.America of SOC in Damascus
Let H.B.Thomas I, realise that he cannot play any game of Politics with Partriarch of SOC!H.B.Thomas I can play game of Gundaism,Mafia and Politics only in Malankara!

Mathew said...

History of Divde& rule is being repeated. The Original fate of Antiochean churh getting disintegrated due to greed and lack of true Orthodox faith will soon engulf the Puthen kurusu Society in near future in Kerala also resulting in ordination of many shersta Bavas. Good Luck.

Ravi George said...

When orthodox Church fought against this greedinessof Antioch to capture everything, we were seen as "not sticking to fathers path.' See History repeating itself. Enen then they will not learn.

Ravi George said...

Ther is a solution to all these issues. Let the faithful join the one and only one Orthodox Church which is neither Metran Kakshi nor Patriarch kakshi and become TRULY ORTHODOX, a free Orthodox church fouded by St Thomas in India.

lajy said...

When jacobites are not worried then why we r worried.They never distant Partriarch becauses they love more than mother what they said openly.It is lesson for thomas bava instead gaing power he draged patriarch to the fighting.Partiarch has moved his card properly onces lost power he taking control.ALLWAYS HE WANTED TO BE BOSS NOT SPRITUAL LEADER
YERY SOON JACOBITES WILL LOSES IDENTY WITH IN PERIOD OF TIME FULLY IT WILL PART OF SYRIAN ORTHODOX NO ONE FUTURE WILL CLAIM SEPARTE RULES FOR MALANKARA .ZAKKA IS GOOD RULE & BOSS.

Ravi George said...

This same game was
played in Malankara by Antiochean church. What is the need for keeping the Malankara Syraisn directly under Patriarch. These faithful are under the Catholicose. It is real injstice shoen to Indians

sam said...

Mr.Geevarghese
Your Comment is right and Good! However look at MSV ,SOCM and other Internet media of Jacobite Church of Malankara ,What are they doing/publishing lies/maliciouus stories everyday about MOSC!
Greek orthodox church or Russian Orthodox,other O.O. Churches do not have any Arch diocese/Maphrianate in India(malankara)or they do not claim any supremacy over MOSC!They don't even spread heretic teachings like JOSC in India in the name of Protection of Antiochean Throne and faith!
It is better both church factions refrain from critizising each other in public.

Joe G. said...

I agree with T. Geevarghese. Why are we so keen on tearing one another down rather than building each other up? Let us rather pray that if any problems exist with our brothers and sisters that they will be able to sort them out peacefully, fraternally, and toward the betterment of a brighter future of Orthodox faithful all over!

Observer said...

Hi all, Our bawa is clever and crooked so he will find a way to terminate HG Titus from US as same as our bawa rediculed our Malabar bishop by gundaiusm and "koodothrum". Our bawa doesn't care about his actions but he only cares about the words to the public.As long as he can pretent as a spiritual man by crying/distorted throat sounds he will be the winner of this world (There is no other world).

eldhose said...

YELDHO MAR TITUS METHRAPOLITHA PERUMBAVOOR BETHEL SULOKO JAACOBITE CATHEDRAL PARISH MEMBER ANU.CATHOLICOS NODUM PATRIARCH NODUM ULLA THIRUMENI YUDA SNEHAVUM BAHUMANAVUM NJANGALKU ARIYAM.VARUTHE ATORTHU MANAPPAYASAM UNNANDA.MATTULLAVANDA KANNILA KARADU ADUKAN NOKKUNATHINU MUNPU SWANTHAM KANNILA THEKKIN THADI ADUTHU KALAYAN NOKU.
ELDHOSE
PERUMBAVOOR.
ANTYOKYA MALANKARA BHANDHAM NEENAL VAZHATTE.......

Ebenezar said...

Dear ALL
These are mere gimmics ofH.B. Thomas I!Whether they resign or conduct rally they recite the same slogan!That is All! They are not going to resign or they are not going to abdicate their position!H.B. Thomas I playing politics that is all!
They will conduct the rally for tarnishing MOSC!

Innocent said...

Eldhoseey,
Nammal Ammaye Maranallum Antiochyaayee marakoolaaaaaaa.
You methran Kakshikal doesn't know the love and respect Tithos Thirumeni give to Thomas Bava. Tithos Thirumeni became a Bishop only because of our Bava. People do say he is related to your Malankara Varghese, but that doesn't mean is with you guys. He is dead against you guys. Do you remember our Tithos Thirumeni a few years ago in U.S when he went to consecrate a church of ours many of your guys were also there. Thirumeni asked all your achens to get out of the Madbaha and then only he did the consecration. That is the spirit he has for our people and he will never create division with our church. Don't make any 'mental payasam'

aji said...

hi. m also agree with geevarghese comments. Now we are simply criticising others and wasting time. we are christians and followers of Jesus Christ so we have somany social and ethical matters to respond. Each and every church in India and outside India has their own problems and political issues, no church is inferior or superior so then why we are making unnecessary comment and put down the christian values.

rt said...

Puthen kurisu society need two more methran....means thomas I is making some more "puthen" for him.

eldo said...

enikkoru doubt.society thudarea thudarea nadapadikramam koodathea yogam cherunnathinea ano sabha yogam cherunnathinea ano synod ennu parayunnathu.entea veedinaduthulla co opearative society (janagal thiranjrdutha allathea president nominate cheyyunnathalla)yogam cherunnathinea board meeting ennanu vilikkunathu.synodum board meetingum onnano?

love jesus said...

i do not understand why we people are trying to promote the matters of Jacobite church. they got separated and having there own Constitution. i wounder why our websites are trying to report their new all the time. i have a simple thing to ask to this promoters . is our church is like Pakistan i asking this when ever a problem occur in Pakistan they start to say any our issue and blaming India. does our people's attitude changed like it?

Samji said...

Dear Innocent
MOSC are not foolish to dream/make "mental Payasam"! But remember one thing "those who take sword shall perish by Sword"!The way Jacobites heirarchy consider themselves as HOLY when they are involved in unholy activities,they are like Hypocrites and just like Pharisee of Jesus time!Also try to learn What is"CHURCH"! Church is body of Christ which is built As Jesus Christ being Corner stone,apostles and prophets are being stones of foundations!You People beleive and teach Church is Built on St.Peter which is contrary to basic Christian Faith!
Christians follow bible Whereby All Authority,and Throne are created/ made by Jesus Christ.
Heaven is the Throne and Earth is the Footstool of Our Lord!
How come then Jacobites in Malankara praise/give honour to Throne in Antioch which are not biblical?Christians believe and confess that Lord God is their father and mother! But you Say your Father and mother is Antioch!
Church is Body of Christ and then how come it is Built on St.Peter! You Heretic/hypocrite Jacobites stop your nonsenses!

Samji said...

മലങ്കര യാക്കോബായ സഭ പഠിപ്പിക്കുന്ന ചിലസത്യവിശ്വാസ വിരുദ്ധ കാര്യങ്ങള്‍:-
(൧)മോശെ ജനത്തിന്റെ രക്ഷക്കായിജലംപുറപ്പെടുവിച്ചു,കര്‍ത്താവുരക്ഷക്കായി
ജാതികളുടെ ഇടയില്‍ തന്റെ സന്ദേശം വഹിക്കാന്‍ ശിമോനെ തിരഞ്ഞെടുത്തു!
൨)നമ്മുടെ കര്‍ത്താവായ യേശു സത്യപാറ ആയി ശിമോനെ തിരഞ്ഞെടുക്കുകയും
വര്‍ഗങ്ങള്‍ക് തലവനായി അവനെ തിരഞ്ഞയൂടുക്കുകയും ചെയ്തു
൩)പത്രോസിനെഅടിസ്ഥാന ശിലയായികേഫാ എന്ന് പേര്
വിളിച്ചു വ്യക്തമാക്കുകയുംചെയ്തു
൪)ശിമോനെ! എന്റെ ശിഷ്യ,ഞാന്‍ നിന്നെ സഭയുടെ
അടിസ്ഥാനമാക്കി വെച്ച് അതിന്റെ പണിക്കായി ആദിയിന്കലെ നിന്നെ ഞാന്‍ നിര്‍ണ്ണയം ചെയ്തു
൫)ലോകത്തില്‍ എനിക്കായ് സഭപണിയുന്നവര്കെല്ലാം മേല്‍നോട്ടം നിനക്കാണ്!ആരെങ്കിലും
വിരുദ്ധമായി പണിയുന്നെങ്കില്‍ നീ നിയംത്രിക്കണം!എന്റെ ഉപ
ദേശങ്ങളുടെ മകുടം നീയാണ്!
മുകളില്‍ പ്രസ്താവിച്ച കാര്യങ്ങള്‍ ഏതു ബൈബിള്‍ പ്രകാരമാണ് എന്ന്
ചോദിച്ചാല്‍ മറുപടി മാര്‍ അപ്രേം എഴുതി എന്ന് യാക്കൊബക്കാരന്‍പറയും
മാന്യ വായനക്കാരെ കമന്റ്സ് എഴ്തുക!

indian orthodox said...

Dear mosc,

I cannot understand why such senseless comments from people like Mr eldo are promoted in our web page, they always have the same answer n attitude to mosc. Puthenkurishu society doesn't have the right to comment on any of activity related to our church .

thomas said...

thoma sleeha malayali ano?

Innocent said...

Dear Samji,
To be frank for us, every thing is Antioch, every breath is Antioch, every thought is Antioch. There will be nothing without Antioch and there will be no one without Antioch. This is our faith and this our belief. Antiochyan simhasanam neenal vazhattey. Antiochya - Malankara Badanam neenal vazhattey. For us there is no Catholicos without Patriarch. We can afford to have no Catholicos or Maphriya but Patriarch. No NO that is not possible. Patrickiz bava neenal vazhattey

MalankaraSyriacOrthodox said...

You have stated a lot of things and said that is what the Syriac Orthodox (Jacobite) teach. Can you please give your references, from official Syriac Orthodox teachings, Patriarchal encylicals etc to prove your point. Without proof, your comments remain just allegations.

Ravi George said...

My dear friend Innocent

If Patriarch captures all the children of Malankara who are settled in USA, Gulf, Europe etc, how can Antioch-Malankara relation exists?

Antioch's plan is to take over the Jacobites in Malnkara just like abig company swallow small companies. Here the funny thing is: snaek is swallowed by a frog..ha ha ha ha

Ithellam munkooti kandavanaanu parishuddha vattasseril Thirumeni... Ithrayum kaalam Malankara-Antioch bandam ennu vilicchu koviyittu ippol karynagal ponna pokku kando?

You see Innocent, Thomas bava's circus will not last long. Valiaya veezhcha addehatthinu sambhavippanulla kaalam aayi.

Recenly Didimos valiya bava said, "I leaned through my years as catholicose that Prayer is the most important thing to lead Sabha".

Thomas Pradhaman thirumeni will also pray to publush photos in viswasasamrakshakan. And eh wil pray on street to make a fight scene. SEE HIS PLIGHT NOW.


In 2004 Thomas bava said he woudl quit soon. Why it is taking so much time? He will say this thing agaisn and make a scene. Then some leaers will sit dharna in front of his house demanding the withdrawal of resignation...DRAMA DRAMA DRAMA.

We know Thomas bava well.

Now hi rally to Parumal is going to be his waterloo, if it ever happens.

On Wednesday (17th) I was in parumala to spdn a day. I heard peopel telling that this year as teh largest crowd at parumala. Jacobite athibhdrasanam leaders, remember that if you provoke Orthodox church, you will be losers..

Ravi George said...

Thoams,

Indiayilekku Thomas sleehaye ayaccha karthaavu addheahthe bharateeyanakki ayacchu ennu viswasaicchal polum athil thetilla. karanam ee mannil bhararateeya chrstainikku vendi raktham chorinja aa pithavine marannittu enthu perunnaal?

Read 'Kerala pazhama'bu Dr herman Gundert. It says the oen and only most important FESTIVAL celebrated by Nasranees was teh Parunnal of Thomas.

Ethrayo noottandukal kazhinju ivide vanna Antiochiyyyaakaar vichariacchal athonnum pokilla...

Ravi George said...

READ KERALA PAZHAMA by Dr Herman Gundert, Book published by Mathrubhoomi. Available in all mathrubhommi book shops.

New edition may costless than
Rs 100 (I have an old copy.)

Samji said...

Att:Malankara Syriac Orthodox
There are no allegations what I alredy stated in this Blog about Faith of Jacobite Church in Malankara! All those are taught by your heirarchy in varius places and through your media like SOCM,MSV,VS and other publicatiobs like Yakkobyan and "ITHU VISWASATHINTE KARYAM"leaflet published by Jacobite Church in North America in2002.Closing your eyes does not make darkness!

Fyodor said...

@ Malankara Syriac Voice

These things are told by your people in THIS forum itself...

There was a debate about Peters Suremacy going on in SOCM YAHOO FORUM in THIS month itself.

Now i understand that you are just one puppet, who blindly belive what is spoon fed to you.

Samji said...

Att:Malankara Syriac Orthodox
please refer to your fellow jacobite's(mathew) comments on BlogPost September 2010 "Fututre of Christianity in India)about Petrine Supremacy! What ever your own fellow Jacobite wrote in this Blog is a true evidence to my claim of Heretic teachings of Jacobite church in Malankara!!

MalankaraSyriacOrthodox said...

Lord Have Mercy on all of us. We all may use the following terms to describe us 'Malankara' or 'Syrian' or 'Orthodox' or 'Jacobite'.

But I know for a fact that we are not eligible to call ourselves 'Christians'.

1 John 4:20: "If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?"

We are brothers, if we dont love one another and have respect for each other, then we sure dont love God and if we dont love God then we sure are not Christians.

I am neither the editor nor a suscriber to MSV. I am just an ordinary Malankara Nazranee, holding on to the Orthodox faith of the three ecumenical councils and also cherish the canonical and historical relationship between Malankara and the Patriarchate of Antioch and all the East.

I have never said that all the Patriarchs are saints, at the same time I am not willing to accept the assertion by some that all on the Patriarch side from 1911, including H.H Elias III of Manjanikkara are evil and demons.

I don't see the church dispute as a fight between right and wrong. I dont think one side is 100% right and the other side is 100% wrong. I think it is a misunderstanding among brothers, which can be sorted out if there is love and humility.

Please pray for me a sinner or as you like to call me a 'spoon fed puppet' so that our Lord will have mercy on me.

MalankaraSyriacOrthodox said...

@Fyodor
I am not Malankara Syriac Voice, my handle name is Malankara Syriac Orthodox. Each of those words describe me. I am from Malankara, I follow the Syriac tradition of worship and I have the Orthodox faith of the three ecumenical councils.

Now coming to your comment about debate. Debate among Christians is not a bad thing, as long as it is rooted in love. We know there was debate among Christians especially St.Paul and St.Peter about the need for Gentiles to get circumcision and the need for the Gentiles to folllow the 'Kosher' food laws of the Jews, if they convert to Christianity. They sorted it out at the Synod of Jerusalem, chaired by St.James the first Bishop of Jerusalem.

Nobody is perfect; I know that I am not perfect. H.B Thomas I or H.H Zakka I are not perfect, they are humans and have human weeknesses. They are high priests appointed by our Lord. More has been given to them and more will be asked of them by the Lord. But it is between our Lord and them. The same is the case with H.H Paulose II or H.H Didimos I. I have no business passing judgement on them. The only business that I have is to continue to pray for them. The only person born of a woman and is perfect is our Lord Jesus Christ.

If this is a Christian blog then, comments on here even when we disagree with someone, should be with love and respect.

Samji said...

Dear All
The question asked by Thomas(or his doubt)Whether apostle Thomas(thoma sleeha)is Malayalee or not is a big joke!It is like somebody reciting "Ramayan"whole night and in the morning says "Sita"was wife of Ravanan!This Guy Thomas is a malayalee?

Innocent said...

Dear Ravi George,
I have lot of respect for Vattasseril Thirumeni. My father was a very close friend of Late V.C.Samuelachen who had high regard for Vattasseril Thirumeni. Achen had remarked to my father that the respect Vattaseril Thirumeni had for Anticohian Patriarchs were with utmost sincerity and he used to say all that we see today is fake. I used to get irritated with such comments. Towards the end of my father's life he used to often remember the words of Samuelachen and used to tell us, "enthokke paranjallum, vattasseril methrachan oru amanushika manushanayirunnu". So I am not going to make any remark related to Vattasseril Thirumeni.
But I also have high respect for Antiochian Patriach. That is why I say Antiochya Simhasanam neenal vazhattey.

Samji said...

Dear All
Mar Geevarghese Coorilose and his interview comments in U.K. are part of Gimmick played by him just like H.B.Thomas!Those people who cannot even respect court's judgement and rulings are are part of democratic society in India/malankara?Let him allow first of all Rev.Fr.Thomas Remban to conduct service in Kothamangalam Church! If Mar coorilose want to pray at the tomb of St.Gregorios at Parumala ,he is free to do so. But his and society's ultimate aim is to close down the Parumala Church of MOSC!

Ebenezar said...

Dear Innocent
You can love anybody especially Antioch Partriarch or his clergy!This does not mean Throne in Antioch are created by Lord Jesus!Lord Jesus never created any throne for his Disciples on earth.Also all authority Jesus gave his 12 disciples equally!
Where and when did this throne in Antioch come in existence? you cannot Challenge anybody on unrealistic and inmaterial grounds!

MalankaraSyriacOrthodox said...

Dear Samji,
You say the ultimate aim of Mor Koorilose Metropolitan of Niranam is to close down Parumala Church. The only person who knows the mind of another is God. If we claim we know what is inside the mind of another, we claiming to be God and committing blasphemy.

I dont know how familiar you are with Angamaly, Kandanad and Kochi dioceses. In these dioceses next to or close to most of all the old Churches there is a Catholicate Center; and they function just fine. In Puthupally next to the old church there is a Patriarchal Church and it functions just fine. If you go even further back in Angamaly you can see Syro Malabar Catholic and Malankara Syriac churches next to each other: for example at Akaparambu. This happened after the split after Koonen Kuriz satyam. In Secunderabad the Malankara Syriac Church and the Marthoma church are on the same compound.
A small church in 20 cents of land next to Parumala Seminary will not cause any harm to Parumala Seminary.

MalankaraSyriacOrthodox said...

I agree with the comments about Vattesseril Thirumeni. Vattesseril Thirumeni belonged to the undivided Church. He may have been excommunicted (we can disagree if that was valid or not), but what ever excommunication was there, it was lifted by H.H Elias III Patriarch. So those who respect H.H Elias III, should respect the memory of Vattesseril Thirumeny also.

Ebenezar said...

Dear All
Those who critisize MOSC and its blog postings here why don't they say a word about JSOC and its heirarchy's everlasting fight against MOSC,and and continueous ridiculing in various forms of lies and false statements through JSOC media and publications!

Samji said...

Dear Malankara Syriac Orthodox:
You don't need to distant yourelves from SOC Damascus or JSOC in Malankara merely writing/posting here in this Blog!
First you stated that I/we should quote or refer from SOC teachings or Partriarch Encylical etc!Do not try to make us fools!You Said now that "We'are not eligible to call Christians! Can you tell this to your Jacobite Heirarchy or post this in SOCM forum? Your Jacobite Church heirarchy always declare and cry aloud they are the only true/real christians in Malankara and MOSC are are mere name seekers/or christians by pretense only!
Can you tell us What Canonical and Historical relationship with Partriarch of Antioch/Damascus that as a Malankara Nazrani you have? or when and where and how it was started?

Fyodor said...

@ Malankara Syriac Orthodox

I dont think, anyone has mentioned anything bad about Elias III here.

I agree that, people here have commented about Abdullah Patriarch, because we have evidences of his deeds here.

And about Patriarch Yakub, we have seen that people,here making comments about his infamous BULL ONLY.

I have not seen, people making comments here, to the extent, the Jacobite make about Vattasheril Thirumeni.

If you could search, the nonsenses the jacobite faction, fabricate about Vattasheril thirumeni, you can understand that, people here are close to nothing in slinging mud.

And to be honest this is no place for a debabe. If you genuinely want to debate, please use the Indian Orthodox Christian, Orkut forum or ICON yahoo forum.

I agree that debate, has lot of effect, a honest debate can change a fanatic to a moderate. Again plese find the right place for it.

Samji said...

Dear Malankara Syriac Orthodox:
The hatred and enemity in Malankara are not created by MOSC!The First and second Samudaya Case was filed by Antioch Partriarch or his supporters in Malankara!Vattasseril Thirumeni went to Mardin and Apologised before Antioch Partriarch! The Holy Partriarch of Antioch, Kicked out him personally three times and refused to listen to him!
You must also read the current edition of V S whereby Moolayil Chor Episcopa making allegations/lies/ and baseless statements against MOSC and its heirarchy forgetting what him and his masters did and stated in various forums!it is all in web ,you don't need to suscribe those yellow media for reading!
Also I would request you to read 1peter 5:2-4 and compare what really your Holy fathers of Antioch did in Malankara! James the first bishop of Jerusalem,called the first Synod to discuss faith matters.also read Galatians 2:11-14 whereby Apostle paul rebuked St.Peter by face,on the same issue!

Fyodor said...

@ Malankara Syriac Orthodox
Apologies, I was under the illusion that you are someone from Malankara Syriac Voice.

Why we are concerned about the ambitions of Jacobite to establish a church in Parumala is because, the statements from Coorilose Thirumeni, are all muddled with lies.

One

The claim that, there are 30 members in Parumala, is a lie, which a bishop should never utter. I stay very very close to Parumala church, and the nearest Jacobite church to Parumala is at chennithala which is around 4.5 or 5 kms away from Parumala.

To the knowledge of everyone at parumala, there is NOT EVEN ONE single jacobite soul in parumala island. Only if you bring some people from elsewhere, or manage to bribe some members, u can claim membership of 30.

Two

If I go to your SOCM forum, there are people who say, that jacobites should build churches in front of all IOC churches, including NIranam, Kallupara etc. Does this sound Christian?


Three

Coorilose thirumeni, also stated that, if jacobites are given a chance at Parumala they will not construct a new church. So what is the intention?

The apprehensions of poor laymen are that, the new jacobite church, is a tool for bargaining.

Another issue is the southern areas are relatively peaceful, and have not seen the kind of standoff that is common to the north. Hence it is should be reasonable for anyone in the south to maintain uneasiness.

Fyodor said...

Catholicate centres
Don’t you think that we could have build Catholicate centres in 1975 itself. We would have had many jacobites joining these churches.

The then Catholicose was Baselious Mathews I, one of the best IOC has ever had. He started the concept of having dioceses outside Kerala. Seeing that many other Christian groups like Marthoma and SMC followed.

Do you think that such a person would have never thought of having catholicate centres near jacobite churches?

We constructed catholicate centers recently because, we have people who have no place to go. Can you show me one catholicate center with less than 20 members? All these churches have considerable amount of people.

Whereas in Parumala it is Zero. ( 30 is a big lie )

Fyodor said...

@ Samji

Vathasheril Thirumeni, never apologized. Why would he do that and for what reason?

I guess u have used the wrong terminology.

Something which the present Jacobites sluggishly forget is that, a wild majority of the cases from 1912 onwards till early 1990’s were given by the jacobites themselves

We gained momentum after the 1995 verdict. With a solid verdict to back us.

Also the patriarch did kick Vattasheil Thirumeni out. Both the Patriarch and Vattasheril thirumeni had pleasant conversations in Syria.

However the game was played by Mar Julios the Patriarchs envoy who came with Vattasheril Thirumeni. Mar Julios had the letter that lifted the excommunication of Vattasheril Thirumeni.

When the train, they both were travelling reached Shornur railway station, some fanatic Jacobites met Mor Julios, had private conversations with him, and he later sided with the jacobites.

He was the one who forged the letter of excommunication of Abdul Mashiha Patriarch in Manjanikara. Some lawyers convinced him, that, if Patriach Abdul Masiha’s excommunication was proved, then the validity of the catholicate established by him can be questioned and that they can win the case.

Hence, Mor Julios made a forged excommunication document, of Patriarch Abdul Masih. The document was outrighly rejected by the court and the jacobite faction lost the case.

Renowned theologian Fr. VC Samuel was the witness of this forgery. He shifted alliance from Jacobite group to IOC after witnessing this.

Hence we shouldn’t be blaming Mor Elias Patriach. and should be censuring Mor Julios and all those fanatic jacobites who made Pat. Mor Elias a puppet.

Samji said...

Dear Malankara Syriac Orthodox:
MOSC people or their Catholicate Centres are never a threat to Jacobites In Malankara!However the attitude,gesture,mentality of Jacobite Church Heirarchy at present are to destroy MOSC by any way! for that they can play any unchristian ways and tricks!You are asking me about Mar Coorilose mind!I am not the one who read, know/understand his mind but It Is THe Lord!However I know what is the idea behing Jacobite Church Heirarchy in constructing a new church in the name of Parumala saint mar Gregorios just next to current Parumala Church! I would suggest rather than telling MOSC people the Bible or teachings of Christ you better teach your own Heirarchy and others of your Jacobite Blood!

Samji said...

Dear Fyodor
Vattasseril Thirumeni really tried to reconcile with Partriatch of Antioch! He had requested Partriarch to take his Title back and authority as Malankara Metropolitan in order to have peace in Malankara! Partriarch did not listen to him because of Mar Julius!
Abdul Massiah Partriarch was never excommunicated by Synod in Antioch. The Sultan of Turkey just took back his "FIRMAN"(authority given by Turkey Sultan to Partriarch)as Abdulla III gave the sultan of Turkey more money
to make him Partriarch of SOC and sultan withdrew his 'firman' from Abdul Massiah Partriarch!
About Peace in Malankara, Elias III came here for peace! But "Peace" was in His Pocket all the time!
During 1958 When Supreme court verdict came,Partriarch of Antioch recognised and accepted MOSC and its Catholicose L/L H H Geevarghese Baselios II, without any conditions they knew the canonical validity of Abdul Massiah's consecration of cathoicose, estlablishment of Catholicate in Malankara was done properly and canonically!

Samji said...

@malankara Syriac Orthodox
In Puthupally next to old Church a new Jacobite Church is there! There are no problems!As A Puthuppaly non resident you do not know the problems over there!You may ask residents of Puthupllay the problems of locals facing there!you always ignore realities or actual problems!Another incident next to my spouse's Family church(more than600 parish members) there is a small jacobite church(around 20Families.This Jacobite Church always play/operate Microphnone loudly in order to interrupt,disrupt,disturb/inconvenience the Big orthodoxParish sundayworships or feasts!This how Jacobites in Malankara always behave!
So do not attempt to tell me about the tolerance and perseverance your fellow jacobites!

MalankaraSyriacOrthodox said...

@Samji
I am not trying to make anybody a fool. Why would I? What do I gain by making anyone a fool. I am not that smart a person any way, to make fool of others.

Why you do you say MINE and YOUR. It is OUR. We are one. We are brothers.

We should be looking at ways to sort out our differences and establish peace. I never for a moment said that you are not a Christian. Honestly I don't have the authority to pass that judgement,we will find that out when we stand before our Lord on the judgement day. Then we will know who is a Christian that our Lord will take in and to whom he will say: I do not know you, depart from me.

What I was saying was that the tone of the conversation in the blog does not sound 'Christain' to me. I will agree the tone in other blogs and yahoo groups are not much better either and I share my feedback about that in those forums also.

We can have peace only if we love each other. If we love each other, we will not be looking for ways for us to win and for the other to be defeated. If we love one another, we will look for a win-win formula for peace. And again I reiterate, peace is more important than unity. We need love first, from the love should come respect from the respect will come peace. If we have all of these, in due course of time administrative unity will occur.

On the contrary, if we say; my party won, your party lost. So we are going to take control, you can either submit to my control or else we are going to take all your churches, and even if you try to buy your own land and build a new church, we will block that also by going to the district collector.

With this approach we will not have unity for sure; we will not have peace, respect or love.

MalankaraSyriacOrthodox said...

@Fyodor
Catholicate Centers were started in the time of H.H Mathew I Bava itself. I know the Angamaly Mar Gregorious Catholicate Center was started in 1978 and the permenant structure of the building completed in 1980 and consecerated by none other than H.H Mathews I Bava.

Samji said...

@Malankara Syriac orthodox:
We do not need go up to Secenderabad/other Indian States for peace/harmony,as we have lot of Churches of various denominations in our home area in Kerala!Like my home parish,we have Malankara RiteCatholics/Latin catholcs ,Marthoma,and CSI with in Half a Kilometer distance, from each church primises we can see other church and its surroundings, where we live in Harmony and peace!The Malankara Rite and Marthoma members are mainly from Orthodox church!However The JSOC churches nearby MOSC are always spreading and causing troubles although everybody claim they are Brothers!
In Parumala there are no JSOC members or Faithful,whereby JSOC now try to canvas MOSC people to support their alleged claim!Furthermore the people following same faith/sacrements should not create problems by constructing a new church with in 700 mts of periphery of existing/present church of Parumala!

Innocent said...

You people say that we are simply an Arch diocese of the Syrian Orthodox church. Our Managing Committee which is going to be held shortly is recommending formation of new dioceses and 9 new Bishops for Singapore & Malaysia, Dubai & Abudabi, Bahrain & Qatar, Mumbai, Highrange, Perumbavoor, Muscat & Oman, Kothamangalam & Africa. In total we are now going to consecrate 9 more Bishops. The Bishop for Africa will be a surprise for you guys. Your Priest has already approached our Patriarch and he wanted to be directly under him. Infact we were originally planning for 11 Bishops one for Manarcad and another for Kothamangalam Church. But the faithful have been assured that in the not so distant future they will get one separate Bishop. We can’t have everything at one go.

Fyodor said...

@ Malankara Syriac Orthodox

Angmaly is a big diocese and there are considerable numbers of IOC faithful. As I told earlier Catholicate centers are not rebel churches.

They are for members who were KICKED OUT OF THE MAIN CHURCH, by Jacobites themselves.

In Parumala, there are no Jacobites, to be kicked out and not even a single soul in the 4-5 km radius itself.

IN NORTHERN AREAS THERE ARE MANY IOC FAITHFUL, WHO DO NOT HAVE RIGHTS TO PARTICIPATE IN THEIR ANCESTRAL CHURCHES, WHICH ARE UNDER JACOBITE CONTROL.

WHERE DO THEY GO?

THEY CAN’T OBVIOUSLY SIT AT HOME.

Now the Jacobite church after kicking out many people, are cunningly painting these as REBEL churches.

When I meant Catholicate centres in my previsous posts, were, the existences of Rebel ones. Not even one is a rebel, all these catholicate centres are build in places where people have no where to go.

Else, we could have build catholicate centers in front of each and every jacobite church.

I get very frustrated when i see jacobites painting the catholicate centres as rebel churches, after kicking out many members.

Fyodor said...

@Samji

I agree with you, Abdul Masiha Patriarch was never excommunicated by the church.
However some lawyers, here convinced, Mor Julius (Yulios), that if a forged excommunication document, prior to 1912 was submitted, then they can win the case.

Then can claim that, what Abdul Masiha did in Malankara had not validity, Secular historians claim that Abdul Masih was DEPOSED.

Deposed is not Excommunication. As you rightly said, his Firman, was taken back by Turkish authorities. And that is not excommunication.

In Manjanikara Dayara, the Patriarch’s envoy, Mor Yulios forged an Excommunication document, which claimed the excommunication of Abdul Masiha prior to 1912. This document was out rightly rejected by the court here. They lost the case, and we received Rev Fr VC Samuel, a witness to this forgery in out side.

Fyodor said...

@ Malankara Syriac Orthodox

I agree that the tone of everyone including me here is not good in conversation. That’s because we all hide under a mask.

What everyone needs to do is continue being moderate and not respond to vigorously. If 10 people make that sacrifice and continue to be moderate in words, then, all others will also become moderate.

Frustration only shows that a person is WEAK.

It is for everyone here, we can’t win anybody by being adamant. Lets call a spade a spade, but in a Christian manner.

Ebenezar said...

Dear Innocent
Making more Dioceses and consecrating more Bishops has nothing to with SOC constituition/the status of Indian Acrh diocese of SOC!Only in Malankara/India, H.B.Thomas I as Bava or called by Jacobites as SRESHTA BAVA!His Stuaticon is Maphrian! He is not Catholicose!
we know the reason for a Bishop only for Kothamangalam for JSOC!
This(idea of more dioceses and more Bishops) is to Show that JSOC is Bigger than MOSC! Also SOC partriarch can have the glamour of Spiritual leader(large number of faithful) more than any OOC head and still be using the banner Universal Syriac Orthodox Church!

MalankaraSyriacOrthodox said...

@Fyodor
I like your last posting.

Prayer is a very powerful thing. We often dont realize it. When we disagree with someone, the best thing we can do is to pray for that person. If you think the Jacobite Church is not going in a good direction, pray for H.H Zakka I, H.B Thomas I and for the member of the Synod. Pray for the members of the Jacobite Church. You will see a dramatic change.

But to pray for someone, you have to genuinely love the person. That is what is missing in the Malankara dispute. Neither party loves the other party. If there is love, any kind of difference of opinion can be overcome. If there is no love, even when two parties agree on everything, there will be a new difference, about what color we should paint a church building with or something even more trivial than that.

So, please forgive me and pray for me. I will do the same for you. Trust me, with love and prayer, we can make a difference.

Ebenezar said...

Dear All
There is a new slogan by North American Arch Diocese of JSOC"Ammayaye Njangal Marannalum,Anthyokayeyum Malankareyeyum Njangal Marakilla"!Those who does not want "Malankara"now want Malankara, for what? How funny these guys are!

Babu said...

I am very happy to see you guys print on your own web site that H H The Patriarch of Universal Syrian Orthodox Church Excommunicated
Mor Niclovos.(Brother Marichalum Vendilla Nathunte Kannuneer Kananam)

Njangalude vimathar ningelkennum Koottayirikkatte,
We have no problems in our Church and Don't try to create problems, We have One Patriarch, One Sreshta Bava, and One Arch Bishop for Malankara Archdiocese of North America and Canada. Before you create problems tell mor Nocolovos return our Properties be a decent Sabha!!! Hey can you promote our Parumala Church fund raising through your web site.

Babu USA

Fyodor said...

@ Malankara Syriac Orthodox

Good last post

Agreed.We can overcome all barriers through love.

If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other. - Mother Teresa

Ebenezar said...

Dear BaBu
Mar Nicholavas did not come/join with Jacobite Property in U.S. to MOSC! Whatever he has is in his trust name with Co-trustees still now!
It is not MOSC who cause problems in your Church in U.S. or U.K., as alleged by yourselves!Do not talk about decency of your church with Mafia and gundaism promoted by H.B. Thomas 1 group!

sampariyarathu said...

Mr.Babu
What you have stated(commented)are true as those are the attiude of your church heirarchy(brother marichalum....nathoonte kanneer kanamallo)!The ribels in your church are not the creation of MOSC!they are the product of your Church heirarchy's Nonchristian behaviour and unfaithfulness to the Lord as well as to their flock!

Those who want kill their mother or who deserted her has to pay for that one day!

Vayaliparamban said...

Malankarayude Yakoob Burdanaye Samathanathode Vasikkuka.

Americayille Yeldhose Pithave Samathanathalley Vazhuka.

Antiochyayille Patrikizhemarey Samathanam illathakkuka. Malankarayil ningal vithacha assamathananthitte vithu njangal nooru menikoyinnu.

NITHIN said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Joe G. said...

I have great faith in resolution especially after reading the interaction between Fyodor and MalankaraSyriacOrthodox. My prayers will be for constructive dialogue and eventual peace and softened hearts. Blessings to you all.

Ravi George said...

Malayala Manoram report (published on 10 Oct 2005)

Thomas Pradhaman told newsmen that he had written to HH Patriarch for relieving him from the post of Catholicose. He also told that bishops should retire at the age of 75. He had taken this decison when he was anointed as the catholicose...

Can any jacobite leader please tel what happened to the 'wish' of HB Thomas Thirumeni?

Ebenezar said...

Dear Ravi George
These statements of H.B.Thomas are mere joke/trick or drama to confuse ordinary people!Just take it as that way!H.B. Thomas is playing games like politicians! we leave it that way!

AKHIL said...

angane njangalude bava ye kochakkukayonnum venda. logathile vechu bhoologa kallatharam kaanikunna ningade paulose II bava yekal enthukondum bhetham thanne aanu njangade bava.

Dennis said...

did thomas first resign....is he still the catholicose.......is mor titus still the bishop..y u spread false news....too bad...

thinker said...

This is sad. Why people fighting over such matter? We are all one, as Christians. It doesn't matter what denomination we are in, we all are doing the same thing and leads to only one thing, Praising and worshiping God, the one and only GOD! Baselios Thomas has done some terrible things. He is a murderer and uses goondas to get power in India, as well as the U.S. My relative is a Priest, and he was threatened by Bava's goondas when he tried to meet Baselios Thomas. We all must realize that this man isn't a holy man that we thought he would be. He is very crooked and must be stopped one way or another.