Friday, December 17, 2010

നമുക്ക് വേണ്ടത് യോജിപ്പോ വിഭജനമോ?

നമുക്ക് വേണ്ടത് യോജിപ്പോ വിഭജനമോ?

Draft Proposal for a Protocol between the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch (SOCA) and the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (MOSC) 

220 comments:

1 – 200 of 220   Newer›   Newest»
Kunjerukkan said...

Sthanamohikalkkellam Methran Sthanam Kittiyille. Iny Yojippinu Enthanu Thadasam?

Smijith said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
മാത്യു (ബിനു) കുളനട said...

യോജിച്ചാലും വിഭജിച്ചാലും ഞങ്ങള്‍ക്ക് കുഴപ്പമില്ല പക്ഷെ പുട്ടിയിടിരിക്കുന്ന പള്ളികള്‍ തുറന്നു ആരാധനാ കാണണം ദെവാ വിശ്വാസം കഴിഞ്ഞു പോരെ സഭാ വിശ്വാസം

ninanchen said...

e metran yacobaya sabhayil erunnappol parngathum eppol parayunnathum namukku vishassikkamoo. Kalu marunna rashtriyakkara kattilum valara emoshamanu nammuda metharantayum achanmarudayum prasngam

Ebenezar said...

@mathew Binu Kulanada
By opening all closed church ,there will be true worshipof God?
If we believe/trust in God we can worship him in truth and spirit! There is no need of a church built by stones/bricks and tiles where disputes and conflicts are going on!Morever peace and harmoney could have achieved long time ago in Malankara if both factions would have followed Lord Jesus and his commandments!

Samji said...

Dear All
There is re-unification in Malankara Church! Those who divided the church are not there for unification at all!The Best way is to end all disputes on church properties based on Christ's teachings and commandments and both factions stay in peace and harmony of the Living God!

Thomas said...

Majority of both the side need peace and harmany. some methrans and leaders of both side don't want unit as they may loose their position. So my request to all for pray and try for love and peace in christ.

Mathew said...

Do we really have to listen to this traitor who cheated his own people ?

What peace is he talking about when he is the cause of fights and hatred in more than 35 churches ?

And before you all jump at me... stick to the issue and don't take me on a free ride to Syria, US and Poland.. Let us solve issues here before peeping out.

Pray for me sinner.

God Bless you all !!!

jollymalayil said...

മെത്രാന്‍ കക്ഷിക്കാരുടെ നീക്കം വളരെ ബുദ്ധിപൂര്‍വ്വം ആണ്. ഒന്നുകില്‍ കേസ്സുകള്‍ കൊണ്ട് യാക്കോബായക്കാരെ മുട്ടുകുത്തിച്ചു എല്ലാ പള്ളികളും വരുതിയില്‍ ആക്കുക. അത് നടന്നില്ലങ്കില്‍ (ഇപ്പോള്‍ കോടതി പോലും എതിര്‍ അഭിപ്രായം പറഞ്ഞ സ്ഥിതിക്ക് അത് നടക്കില്ല എന്ന് അറിയാം) അടുത്ത വഴി എങ്ങിനെ എങ്കിലും യോചിപ്പ് പ്രാവര്‍ത്തികമാക്കി യാക്കോബായക്കാരെ വിഴുങ്ങുക . സഭാ പ്രശ്നം മധ്യസ്ഥത വഴി അവസാനിപ്പിക്കുന്നത് ആണ് ഉത്തമം എന്നുള്ള കോടതിയുടെ അഭിപ്രായം കേട്ടപ്പോള്‍ തലയില്‍ ഇടിത്തി വിണത് മുവാറ്റുപുഴ ബിശോപിനും ത്രിശൂര്‍ ബിശോപിനും ആണ്. മധ്യസ്ഥതയില്‍ പ്രശ്നം തിര്ന്നാല്‍ പിന്നെ അവര്‍ക്കെന്തു നിലനില്‍പ്പ്‌? കുറച്ചു അച്ചന്മാരെ വശത്താക്കി പ്രശ്നം ഉണ്ടാക്കിയിട്ടുള്ള പള്ളികള്‍ എല്ലാം കൈവിട്ടു പോയാല്‍ പിന്നെ മുവാറ്റുപുഴ ബിശോപിനു കിഴില്‍ ഉണ്ടന്ന് പറയാന്‍ അരമന എന്ന് പറയുന്ന കെട്ടിടത്തിനു മുന്‍പിലുള്ള കുറചു വാടക മുറികള്‍ മാത്രം. അതിനാല്‍ അദ്ദേഹം ജഡ്ജിമാരുടെ വകതിരിവിനെ ചോദ്യം ചെയ്യുന്നതില്‍ അത്ഭുതപ്പെടെണ്ടതില്ല. 1995 ലെ കോടതി വിധി ക്ക് ശേഷം മുവാറ്റുപുഴ നിന്നും കോട്ടയത്തേക്ക് മുട്ടിന്മേല്‍ നിരങ്ങിയാലും 2002 വരെ വേണ്ട എത്തിച്ചേരാന്‍! പ്രിയ മെത്രാന്‍ കക്ഷി സഹോദരങ്ങള്‍ മനസ്സിലാക്കുക; പൂര്‍ണമായും ഏതാനും പള്ളികളും കുറെ അധികം ആളുകളും ഇദ്ദേഹത്തിന്റെ കൂടെ ഉണ്ടായിരുന്നു എങ്കില്‍ റീത്ത്‌കാര്‍ പുതിയ മുവാറ്റുപുഴ മെത്രാനെ നോക്കുമായിരുന്നോ? അപ്പനെ ചതിച്ചു കൊച്ചപ്പന്റെ കൂടെ കൂടിയ പുന്നാര മോന്‍ തരം കിട്ടിയപ്പോള്‍ കൊച്ചപ്പനിട്ടും വച്ചു
ഒരു പാര; വെറും പാരയല്ല ജര്‍മ്മന്‍ പാര -ഗുര്‍ഗാന്‍ പാര. പിന്നെ മെത്രാന്‍ കക്ഷിക്കാര്‍ കൂടുതല്‍ കളിച്ചാല്‍ ഇദ്ദേഹം തന്റെ വജ്രായുധം പുറത്ത്‌ എടുത്തേക്കാം - ഗുര്‍ഗാനെ പത്രിയര്‍ക്കിസ് ആക്കി പുതിയ ഒരു സ്വതന്ത്ര ഓര്‍ത്തഡോക്സ് സഭ. ഇദ്ദേഹത്തിനു ഇങ്ങിനെ എഴുതിക്കൂട്ടി സ്വന്തം സമയവും മറ്റുള്ളവരുടെ സമയവും നശിപ്പിക്കാതെ സുബോധം ഉണ്ടായിരുന്നപ്പോള്‍ തന്നത്താന്‍ എഴുതിയ "ഇത് വിശ്വാസത്തിന്റെ കാര്യം" എന്ന മനോഹരമായ കൃതി ഒരു നൂറ്റി ഒന്ന് ആവര്‍ത്തി വായിച്ചു കൂടെ

Innocent said...

Jolly Malayil
You should be our next church secretary. Possibily you should get chevalier position. If Metran Kakshi wants Unity, let them have it. We will strongly stand for division. Because if we can't follow the court verdict, what are we talking about mediative talks. Can't this be questioned in the court.
Jolly you should understand one thing, the suggestion of the Judges was not for any unity, it is to make another twist in this case. Does your senses say that this will ever take place in today's world that too in Kerala amongst the Syrian christians.
Muthupattar Seemayil ninnu vannallum athu nadakilla jolly mone.
Antiokya simhasanam neenal vazhugatey

sam said...

Dear All
When S/C asked both parties/faction to setlle the church cases out of court through a tribunal to be appointed by S/C none of the party involved in the fued agreed or ready to accept that suggestion! Now because of a subordinate court directions some people showing willingness to selltle the disputes out of court because of What?after the verdict of S/C 12 years passed and the validity of S/C verdict become invalid! So they can play their trick role well through mediators now!

Innocent said...

If the mediators don't agree to our conditions then we will not agree to the mediative talks

Vattaparampilachen said...

Dear Saji Achen
You say that a parish consisting of more than 250 members should have two achens and those above 750 members should have 3 achens,if so Why couldn't you try for the same when you were in Bahrain parish for 3 years,which you have assured when you came for vacation from Baharain.Acha it is very easy to write or say anything but we should be practical in all aspects.

Rajeev said...

hi all,

no use for this discussion.....just tell them to leave our church and go head with 2002 sabha and churches

Shaji K said...

Why we are making always cases against churches, is it Christianity?

Jewish executed the Judgment 2000 years before, they cruised our God Jesus
Portugal executed the Judgment to Mor Ignatius Ahattula BABA, tied him up and cast in the Ocean ('Koonam Kurisu Sathayam') ,and lot more

MalankaraSyriacOrthodox said...

I find the proposal #4 from Fr. Saji Mathew very interesting.

He says, since the 1933 Consititution says that the Malankara Church needs a Patriarch, lets establish a Patrairch based in New Delhi.

After reading that comment, I am beginning to wonder if Fr. Saji Mathew knows enough about the reasons of divison OR if Fr. Saji Mathew is serious about unity.

Kottaram said...

ഇതൊക്കെ പറഞ്ഞാലും ഈ അമേരിക്കന്‍ യാക്കോബായക്കാരുടെ കളികള്‍ കഷ്ടം തന്നെ. കൂട്ടം കുത്തുന്ന സ്വഭാവക്കാര്‍. അവരെക്കാള്‍ എത്രയോ ഭേദം നമ്മള്‍ !
നമ്മുടെ കൂടെ കൂടിയ മെത്രാന്മാരെ സൂക്ഷിക്കണം എന്നാണു കോട്ടയത്തുള്ളവരുടെ ഭാഷ്യം. ഈയിടെ കുര്യാപ്പുരം ജോസഫ് എന്നൊരുവന്‍ നമ്മുടെ വെബ്സൈറ്റില്‍ കേറി എഴുതിക്കണ്ടല്ലോ. അയാളൊരു ക്രിമിനല്‍ കുറ്റത്തിന് ജയിലില്‍ പോയവനാണെന്ന് കേട്ടല്ലോ. ഇങ്ങനെയുള്ളവരെ സുഖിപ്പിയ്ക്കാന്‍ നമ്മുടെ ജോയിസ് കൂട്ട് നില്‍ക്കരുത് കേട്ടോ. മഫ്രിയാന്റെ ഗൂണ്ടാക്കൂട്ടത്തില്‍ പെട്ടവനാവാം. പെരുംപാവൂര്‍ക്കാരന്‍ ആണെന്നും കേള്‍ക്കുന്നു. കൂടുതല്‍ കാര്യങ്ങള്‍ കണ്ടു പിടിയ്ക്കാന്‍ ശ്രമിയ്ക്കാം, അറിയിക്കാം വഴിയെ.
കറിയാച്ചന്‍

Arun said...

"Kariyaachante kroorakrithyangal"
Yakobaya sabhayekkal ethrayoo bhethamaanu atthehathinte sabha poolum.....ithu pandu ethoo cenemayil Kochin Haneefa paranjathupoleyundu....'KANDOOOO ENTE ORU ABILITY'.....

JACOBITE YOUTHS said...

angane delhi asthaanamayi oru pathriyakkeesine vazhikkukayanengil ee saji kathanare adhya pathriyarkeesayi vazhikkanam.

Joshy said...

I think the evetual outcome of Fr. Saji's arguement is true seperation, not unity. Because his proposal #4 says, as per the 1935 Consititution Malankara Church needs a Patriarch, so lets establish a Patrairch based in New Delhi.

That means two sections of people supporting two Patriarchs ie. Antioch and Delhi,similar like two Catholocose of Devalokam and Puthenkrush

Fyodor said...

@ Malankara Syriac Voice & Joshy

All that Saji Achan is mentioning is about having an Indian Patriarch for a UNITED indian church.

In the 1934 constitution, it talks about the Syrian Patriarch as the primate with spiritual powers.

Achan is wanting to have a United Indian church with a patriarch on her own, like all the other churches in the Oriental Orthodox group.

Relations with Antioch can be sisiterly, like the Coptic and Ethiopian church.

Mathew said...

Fr. Saji's suggestion to install a Patriarch in Delhi is factional terrorism.I belong to Orthodox faction , still I must say Fr. Saji's proposal is ridiculous.In short Fr. Saji is saying,If one is not able to get along with his 'own'father abandon him and take(install) a father from anybody he likes.Fr. Saji, disputes and diferences are there right from the beggining of Church. Canonical positions are not to be played around with, It will attract curse.If you can't get along with the metropolitan , Would you propose to dethrone him and install new of your choice?.

Johny said...

saji kassisha wants to please his metran coorilos and so proposes for a patriarchis in delhi,which is not possible.coorilos metran of patriarch is intelligent than flying metran of orthodox group.people in mumbai is not happy with metran and his coward kassishias as all are after cash and no work.

pallykkappyar said...

We need a little clarification about Mr. Joshy's comment.(proposal #4 says, as per the 1935 Consititution Malankara Church needs a Patriarch, so lets establish a Patrairch based in New Delhi) I understood that he is thinking-As per the 1934 Constitution, we need a father. We don't have a father as per this constitution. So lets find a father or BORROW one and place him in New Delhi and tried to connect him to Marthoma Sleeha and AD 52.

Johny said...

unity is not possible in malankara as saji kassisha prescribes.metrans of patriarch are more intelligent, clever,well educated and devoted than the metrans of orthodox.metrans of orthodox somehow get into then no accountability only living in lavish with believers money flying and etc etc.

MalankaraSyriacOrthodox said...

@Fyodor
My handle is MalankaraSyriacOrthodox. I am not Maalankara Syriac Voice and have nothing to do with that pulication.

Mathew said...

Dear Vattaparmbilachen,
What Sajiachen meant to say is, his 3year period in Bahrain parish is over. So now, he is happy to have 3 or more vicars over there.
These kinds of Priests and Laity are the crux of problem in our Church.They are called to serve but doing lip service and self service.

Ebenezar said...

Dear All
It is impososible for the two to unite now! The unity in 1958 was only a Show or drama by the Jacobites/Partriarch as they did not have any existence by then!they played all tricks from 1958 until 2002 when they came to realise it is impossible for them to go along with S/C verdict of 1995!Now they are Seperate entity under 2002 society act!What can be acheived now are peace and harmony between the two by ending disputes over church property through cout cases!

Rakesh said...

Antioch Patriach ne Sabhayude Meladikari ayi agikarichal mathrame oru yojippu nadappavllu, Sabhayude Parabareyagalum kannonukalum, kayveppu ellam antioch Patrichil Ninu annu ennu Orthodex nethakal Orkanam. Malakara Sothenra Sabha ennu oru Sabha illa. ethu agikarikatha paksham Sabha piriyunathannnu nallathu.

Samji said...

Dear All
Patriarch,Pope and Catholicose are titles of similar meaning!
In The early church Four sees of Roman Empire are Known as Patriarchs which means regionalhead of Bishops and Sees!So There is No need to have a Patriarch based in new delhi for IOC/MOSC.The Church Heads out side Roman Empire were known as Catholicose!
It is better to have Catholicose based in Delhi rather than Kottayam!However Mafrian is a position under Syrian Partriarch for a greater Diocese,that title has nothing to with catholicose!

mohanmathew said...

Let the case which shook Malankara before 100 years stay there. New issues have croppped up in America.
A new kakashis-- Metran kakshi and Bav kakshi --have been formed there.
ee suruyanikalude aryam apaaram thanne

mohanmathew said...

I have somE proposals for saving universal Syrian Church

1 Limit the jurisdiction of Antioch patriarch to Arab land and their Arab descendents whereever they are

2. Anoint a new Patriarch for 1.1 billion Indians (Indians and people of Indian origin wherever they are) in New Delhi.

3. Let the Patriarch of India and Patriarch of Arabia mind own business without interference in each other's territory.

4. The Patrairch of India be chosen from both Orthodox and Jacobite bishops by making suitabel amendments in the 1934 constitution.

5. limiting the power of Antioch Patriarch to Arab land and estblishing an Indian patriachate are the needs of this century

6. Let the patraichs of both India and Antioch who are of equal satus meet once in 5 years. Let them anoint each other.

7. The issue in Malankara wil be resolved NOW forever if the Antioch patrairch unilaterally declares that he limits his poweres to Arabs and their people everywhere.

mohanmathew said...

Christ did not establish any Patriarchate in Antioch or in Rome. All these were done centuries later for the sake of Church administration (Church was growing fast in these important cities then). If church fathers create Patriarchates now, they would create them in America, India, China, Germany, Dubai, Africa, etc.

Some people who do not want change will look only backwards. They will never see teh future.
Whether we like it or not some Patriarchates will eventualy perish. Antioch is definitely one among them. It will not die an instant death, but will fade away... in this century itself.
A new Patriarchate in India is also on the way

mohanmathew said...

Long back Supreme Court appointed an observer for conducting an elction of Malankara Maetropolitan on the basis of term agreed upopn by both Jacobites and Orthodox. We all know what happened.

Having lost cases miserably, Jacobite leaders fear that the courts will eventually rule in favour of the 1934 constitution in churches. The only way out is mediation. But at what cost?

1. Will the Orthodox church reliqish theior claim over churches estblished under the 1934 constitution?

2. Will Orthodox church settle for deal outside SC rulings which upheld the 1934 constitution?

3. The unity of churchis not going to happen by court's intervention.

4. Then how wil unity come?

Unity will come slowly...
A. By marrige
B. Young People moving away from villages will lose their local traditions. (An American lady who studied about Hiduism has said that many local deities in Hinduim will slowly die as peopel mover out of place.)
C. The relation with Antioch will undergo drastic changes in this decade.
D. Education, theoogical developments, freedom of thought .. all will pave the way for a lesser role for Antioch in India.
E. Christinaity which was limited to Kerala is slowly growing as National. (An arab leadership will NOT be recognised by Indians)

mohanmathew said...

The strongest faith in India is that Indian Church was establshed by ST THOMAS. The tradition in India was known as 'Marthomayude Margam.'

So we have a FATHER ST THOMAS. Why should we want another Father? Why can't we elevate this post to the level we needed? The bishop of Rome was not called Pope for many centuries.

When we have St Thomas tradition, there is no need for Mathai tradition or Peter tadition here. We should elevate the name of the person who sits on the throne of St Thomas to whatever level we want.

Our fathers have established chapels, and we after some years , elevated it tochurch, valiayapally, cathedral.. and so on. Let Arabs mind their own business first.. their churches are in a state of decay. So let them correct themselves first and then think about Indians who are able to govern themselvs.

mohanmathew said...

Dear Ebenezer,

If Jacobites willingly and officially agree for UNITY, it will be very quick and fast, taking care of the intersts of Antioch, bishops in the Jacobite camp ..But if they do not agree and keep going like they did in the past decades, the Jacobite church will rejoin the mother church as bits and pieces. This slow process will take a couple of decades, without taking care of the interests of Antioch or their bishops. That stage has already BEGUN.

mohanmathew said...

Innacha,

Kali Orthodox sabhayodu venda..

We are moving towards the next century with an Indian vision..whereas your Jacobite leadership can look only BACKWARDS.

Probably your Antioch leadership will seek OUR help. AND WE'LL RUSH TO HELP THEM, BUT WILL NEVER ENSLAVE THEM. The Salmoosas will be FREE DOCUMENTS, the ONLY bondage will be to CHRIST, the master shepherd.

Can Indians accept an arab bondage?

if HH Patriarch understands and agree for a unity, it will be good for HH. But if HH remains adamant , there will not be anyone with HH after a period, say 25 years.

Hope good sese will prevail in Antioch

Samji said...

Dear Rakesh
The Priesthood of Jesus Christ is not monopoly of Antiocchean Partriarch!Antiocheans(SOC) never preached gospel in India /China/or far east!Malankara Church MOSC is autonomus and Autocephalous church,which was accepted S/Cand later byL/L H.H.Yakkoob III in 1958!St.Thomas did not get any ordaination from Antioch or MOSC did not get any priesthood from your Antiochean Throne!It was The Present Jacobite Heirarchy who bring heretic teachings in Malankara after 1958 Unity, for self existence,survival and glory! Can you show any canon that Antiocheans really followed in Malankara!also try to learn What is Canon and when original canons were really came in practice!How come Coptic,Ethopian,Armenian churches are not under Antioch they are independant,autonomous and autocephalas! Yakkob Burdhana was ordianed in alexandrea! This does not mean that SOC/antioch are ever under Alexandrean or Coptic church!You don't know the origin of churches and still argue for nothing!

Ebenezar said...

Dear Rakesh
First of all you should learn the elementary lessons of Christianity and Church!those who are calling for split in Church are not christians. When you talk about traditions and Canons(Non apostolic traditions non apostolic canons)you are totally forgetting Christ!Read 1 Corinth1:10-17,3:21-23;3:3-9 about early church and division /disunity and the advice of St.Paul to those people who were causing disunity in church!you must see and quote everything on the basis of early apostolic teachings/traditions or Scriptures!

rinsam2002 said...

DearShaji
Who are always making cases against Churches?What is Church and why it is being closed?When people forget God and follow their own way God/creator keeps quiet for people to repent and turn back to God!However God's people(who claim to be true Christians or God's own people)never realise their mistakes/errors/ungodly ways and repent,turn back to God or cries for help from God!The reason for closed Churches/Disputed churches takes a lomg time to reopen because the people who are supposed to worship God in truth and spirit do not follow God or his ways!Both MOSC and Jacobites are going to face God's wrath for disputes and closing down the churches! Crucifying the Truth!let us both factions stop such ungodly ways first!

pallykkappyar said...

MOHAN MATHEW, I have somE proposals for saving universal INDIAN ORTHODOX Church

1 Limit the jurisdiction of Kanjikuzhi Catholicose to Indian land only.
2. The new generation of this denomination doesn't even like to come to church in other countries.

3. So that the big churches in New York and New Jersey arrange Biriyani and Chicken Fry every sunday to attract the new generation, but still no FALAM.

4. The kids are asking who is Patriarch and who is Catholicose? Why they are coming here to rule us? Unfortunately they dont know the GUNAVADHIKARAM of Pathrose, Thomas and Paulose. In some extend, it is good too, because they dont need to get involved in this fight.
5. What is the future of these churches after 50-60 years? No matter Jacobite or Orthodox. I believe it will be converted to Baptist, Methodist or Presbyterian Churches.
6. Is "Religious Vithesa Nukam" only applicable in Indian land? Or is that applicable in your churches in other countries too? If it is, please stay away from ruling those churches too. Because if a person wanted to be a US Citizen, he has to decare that he is abandoning all the allegiance to any foreign countries, no matter spiritual or political.
7. I believe Jesus Christ and his desciples were born and raised in middle east and since they are middle eastern people, Kanjikuzhi Catholicose has to declare that the jurisdiction of the Christianity has to be limited in and around Israel and surrounding countries.

mohanmathew said...

Kapyarachaya

You don't worry about Indian Orthodox Church because we have a vision for FUTURE. You worry about your SELF-LIQUIDATING ARAB CHURCH

READ NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE and see for yourself what is hapening to your ANTYOOCHIA..(ANTHYAM)

here is the link:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/06/arab-christians/belt-text

Remember, National Geographic magazine , one of the best magazines in the world is not owned by orthodox church

Hope now you will understand why others should rush to save this church

mohanmathew said...

Kapyar has talked so much non-sense.
he said: Because if a person wanted to be a US Citizen, he has to decare that he is abandoning all the allegiance to any foreign countries, no matter spiritual or political.

What does he know about US?
Milions of US citizens hold citizenship of oter countries. For example. Jews haev citizenship of US as well as Israel. Indians have been clamouring for DUAl ciizenship for long time. American law permits this, hope you understand Mr Kapyar.

Now about Indian Church. We never wish to rul over Arab church or American church. Already Patriach has limited teh jurisdiction of jacobite church to India. But our brothren abroad are strong supporters of Catholicate unlike yours

Ravi George said...

Pallikapyar

What do you know about the growth of Baptist, Methodist or Presbyterian Churches in US? All these protestant chruches are showing a negative growth whereas Orhtodox churches have recorded the fastest growth. Religious statistics are publised every year in USA. You seem to be ignorant about many things

pallykkappyar said...

'Utharam muttumpol konjanam kuthuka'ennu kettittundu. Paranja karyangalkkonnum marupadi parayaathe, national geography yel pidickaathu monee.....we are trying to expose the contradictions of your Church's statements and actions. Please don't get mad, because according to your church, we are ONE. And the Jacobites has to leave their own Parishes and build new ones. When we were attempting to build our own Church in Parumala, trying to prevent it through Gundaism. GOOD LUCK AND GOD BLESS YOU BROTHER

MalankaraSyriacOrthodox said...

Why can't we Malankara Nazranees have a decent, respectful dialogue? The problem with us is not Antioch, Devalokam, Patrairch or the Catholicose. The problem with us is ego. We are not willing to respect each other. We see things as black and white. Our side is 100% right and the other side is 100% wrong. We are not willing to think, even for 5-mintues, if my brother is disagreeing with me, maybe he has a point too. May be there are some cases where he is right and I am wrong.

Nothing good is going to come to us, till we start to love and respect each other.

pallykkappyar said...

Angane vazhikku vaa monee mohanakkutta. Enkil njangade karyam njangalkkum nokkan ariyam. Mon veruthe alochichu thala pukackanda.OK?

Abraham said...

The fanatic leaders of Jacobite church in Kerala will never accept any peace proposals. What they want is their own empire in the expense of poor laymen with Antiochian Patriarch as a rubber stamp.What we have to do is that the laymen should unite for peace process avoiding the fanatic leaders. 90% of the laymen in both sides are peace loving people.Once the support of the laymen is not there,the 30+ bishops cann't financially survive.So let us unite together to avoid the leaders and be one church under the H.H.Catholicos of East& Malankara Metropolitan.

Abraham Mattackal John

mohanmathew said...

Dear kapyarachaya

Only Malankara Orthodox Church can help the sinking Antioch Church and their protege in INDIA called 'Jacobites' archdiocese.

Supreme Court, the apex court of India, after studying cases, declared that there is ONE and only ONE MALANKARA church,. It is governed by 1934 constitution. catholicose or patriarch whover can only rule as per that.

(Having lost the case miserably and without shame you call the official church a 'faction' and also other names.)

If some of you want to build new church it is your freedom. BUT LEAVE ALL THE CHURCHES WHICH HAVE BEEN GOVERNED BY 1934 onstitution. We have no qualms about anyone leaving the chuch on their own. DON' think THAT YOU CAN TAKE THE CHURCH TOO to your 2002 or 2010 or 2050 'constitution'.

So you build new church as per your 'constitution'.

I can PREDICT one thing... IF Orthodox faith survies in India, it will slowly merge togther..IT WIL BE A UNITED FAITH. IT MAY TAKE DECADES, BUT THEN ANTIOCH WILL HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO ROLE THERE...THIS IS CHEIFLY BECAUSE THE FUTURE GENERATIONS OF CHRISTIANS WILL NOT ACCEPT THESE STUPID SLOGANS AND UNNECESARY SLAVE THEORIES THAT DOMINATE THEM. BUT THEY WILL LOOK AT THE ORTHODOX FAITH AS HOLY...WAIT & WATCH dear Kapyaarachaya..

Reni said...

Dear Frinds

I want to correct some statement made by Mohanmathew regarding Antioch church.

In Future, Orthodox will not only survive but will flourish absobing many belivers from other sister churches.

Now teh Orthodox faith in India will have good relations with all ORTHODOX faith in the world, including the church in Antioch. But if they expect it to be a slavery relation, i can only sympathise with them.

Therefore it is important for Antioch church to read the writing on the wall.

Jacobits or Orthodox or Malnkara church need not worry.. because they wil be one in future.. Only Antioch nneds to worry about their role in India. Ff they unify the Indian churches they can enjoy a special status (but no MASTER - SLAVE relation.)

If Antioch think they can continue like this, nobody can help them.. they will perish themsleves

mathew said...

mathew said...

we shouldn't forget, how malankara church was protected in early centuries from extinction, it was the bishops from Antioch which took the malankara church & its preachers forward during times of crisis, it is important that malankara orthodox & Jacobite churches needs to be united & should go forward by having brotherhood & cooperation with other christian denominations to spread the real message of our JESUS CHRIST OF LOVE & PEACE!!!

Ravi George said...

@Mathew
Relation with Antioch is not very old. As you told , they had helped us. But the price we are paying i stoo much. Let bygones be bygones.

Now it is time to pack them off. if we don't give them a peaceful send offour next generation will forcefully evict them

Sonu Joseph said...

bahumanapetta achante nirdheshangal poornamaayum parishudha yaakobaya suriyani sabhaye orthodox sabhayude kaal keezhil aakkunnavayanu. ethinodu yojikkan pattilla
sabha yojikkumbol eru vibhagathinum thulya pankanu vendathu. allathe oru vibhagathinu maathram melkoyma nalkikondulla achante nirdheshangal sweekaaryamalla. achante nirdheshathil parishudha antiochia patriarch nu enthu sthanam aanu nalkiyirikkunnathu? malankara sabhaku antiochia patriarch ne thalli paranju kondu oru yojippinum saadhikkilla.

NITHIN said...

ഇവിടുത്തെ യഥാര്‍ത്ഥ പ്രശ്നം എന്താനു......?

സുറിയാനികാറില്‍,

-- ഒരു വിഭാഗം ത്തിനു അന്തികാന്‍ patriarchese -nte കിഇഴില്‍ ഇരികന്നാണ് താല്പരിയും .

-- ഒരു വിഭാഗം ത്തിനു അന്തികാന്‍ patriarchese -nte കിഇഴില്‍ ഈരിക്ന്‍ താല്പരിയ്മില്ല

unity വേണമെങ്കില്‍ patriarchese നേരിട്ടു പറയണം, നിങള്‍ അങ്ങ് യോജിചാല്ല് എന്ന്..

അതിന്നു, mosc catholicose - ഉം aoc patriarchese -ഉം തമ്മില്‍ മുഘാമുഘം ചര്‍ച്ച നടത്തണം .

mosc leaders-ഉം, josc leaders-ഉം തമ്മില്‍ ചര്‍ച്ച നടത്തയിട്ട് ഒരു കാര്യാവും ഇല്ല, കാരണം "ഞാന്‍ പിടിച്ച മുയലിനആണ് മുന്ന് കൊമ്പ് "എന്നാ രീതി യന്നു ഇവിടെ..അതായതെ "ഞാന്‍ നില്കുന്നിടം ജയകണം" എന്നാ രീതി..unity -എന്നാല്‍ ഒരു വിഭാഗം ജയകുകയോ,ഒരു വിഭാഗം തോല്‍ക്കുയോ ചെയുന്ന പരിപാടിഅല്ല.യോജിചു കഴിഞ്ഞാല്‍ പിന്നെ അവിടെ, രണ്ടു വിഭാഗം ഇല്ല ,ഒരു വിഭാഗമേ ഉള്ളു .

ഇവിടുത്തെ main പ്രശ്നം ego ആന്നു, അത് മാറാന്‍ ഒരു കാരിയ്യം ചെതാല്‍ മതി ,പരസ്പരം പക്ഷം മാറി ചിന്തിച്ചാല്‍ മതി, അതായതു ""orthodox -കാരന്‍ ഞാന്‍ ഒരു jacoba -കാരന്‍ annu എന്നു സ്വയമേ വിചാരികുക"",അതുപോലെ "jacoba -കാരന്‍ ഞാന്‍ ഒരു orthodox -കാരന്‍ annu എന്നു സ്വയമേ വിചാരികുക"..നമ്മള്‍ എല്ലാവരും സുറിയാനികാര് annu എന്നു വിചാരികുക.

Samji said...

Dear Nithin
Malankara church was divided or split was made by Antiochean Patriarch Yakkoob III.As a Supreme head of SOC he was not supposed to create any division in Malankara Church!Malankara Church are followers of St.Thomas Way! We are not Syrians and Suriyani did not come in Malankara through W.Syriac/antioch! As Malankara Nazranis we are supposed to be one!
MOSC cannot accept/recognise now SOC Partriarch as SOC partriarch behaved unchristian way in Malankara and made heresy through infamous Bull 203!
the real cause of Disunity in Malankara created by SOC Head!
As St.Thomas Christians(malankaranazranis) we can unite in Malankara and there is no surrender by anybody,but submission to God through Unity!

Samji said...

Dear SonuJoseph
You must understand one thing,in Malankara St.Thomas Preached gospel and we are Malankara Nazranis or St.Thomas Christians!
we are not under the see of SOC Partriarch!MOSC recognise SOC partriarch subject to its constituition! Jesus Christ did not appoint St.Peter as head of apostles or supreme authority of his church on earth!In Christ all apostles are equal and together as we are members/organs of the body of Christ!!Church is the body of Christ!Christ is the head of Church! Church is not Political party like Kerala Congress(m)and Joseph groups!Those who are calling for disunity and Division are not truly Christians!

Ebenezar said...

Dear Nithin,Sonu Joseph
Read 1 Corinth 12:13,1 corin 3:11,22-23;1 corin4:15;1corin3:4-9and try to understand these verses the real meaning/sense!
The present four church administration,overseesr(bishop)Elder(priest)/presbytor,deacon and laity are mentioned in epistles written by St.Paul!
what you people are saying has no basis in Christianity!
after a long fued/court cases, in 1958 there were unity and peace in Malankara church!How come this unity/harmony, disapper or disunity come in 1973?What are the cause? Who created division in Malankara? When St.thomas came in A.D.52 in Malankara, did he bring priests/bishops from Antioch? did he tell Malankara people that They are Syrian ChristianS/suriani christians?True Malankars Nazranis will never stand for/cause disunity in Malankara Church

malankarajsc said...

സജി അച്ചന്‍ പറയുന്നത് ഓര്‍ത്തഡോക്‍സ്‌ സഭയുടെ വക്താവയിട്ടാണ് അല്ലാതെ സമാധാനത്തിനു വേണ്ടിയല്ല .കാരണം സുപ്രീം കോടതി വിധി അന്ഗീകരിക്കും എന്നാല്‍ പാത്രിയര്‍ക്കെസിനെയോ ഭേദഗതി ചെയ്ത ഭരണഘടയെയോ അങ്ങീകരിക്കില്ല എന്നുള്ളത് തന്നെയാണ് ഇവിടെ സമാധാനത്തിനു തടസ്സം.സുപ്രീം കോടതി വിധിയില്‍ പാത്രിയര്‍ക്കീസ് സഭയുടെ ആത്മീയ തലവനനെന്നും ഭേദഗതി ചെയ്യപ്പെട്ട ഭരണഘടന പള്ളികള്‍ക്ക് ബാധകമെന്ന് വ്യക്തമാക്കിയിട്ടുണ്ട്.പിന്നെ അച്ചന്‍ പറഞ്ഞു പത്രിയര്‍ക്കെസിനെ ഡല്‍ഹിയില്‍ വാഴിചാക്കണമെന്നു .സുപ്രീം കോടതി വിധി വരുമ്പോള്‍ ഉണ്ടായിരുന്ന പത്രിയര്‍ക്കെസിനെ (അന്ത്യോക്യന്‍ ) സുപ്രീം കോടതി പരാമര്‍ശിച്ചിരിക്കുന്നത് അല്ലാതെ മെത്രാന്‍ കക്ഷികള്‍ക്ക് ഭരിച്ചു മുടിപ്പിക്കാന്‍ പത്രിയര്‍ക്കീസ് എന്നാ ഒരു പുതിയ തസ്തിക ഉണ്ടാക്കുക എന്നല്ല. അച്ഛനാണെന്ന് പറഞ്ഞപ്പോള്‍ സാമാന്യ ബോധം കാണുമെന്നു തെറ്റിദ്ധരിച്ചു .ക്ഷമിക്കണം .പിന്നെ സമാധാനം ഉണ്ടാകനമെന്നുള്ളത് എല്ലാവരുടെയും ആഗ്രഹം തന്നെയാണ് .എന്നാല്‍ എല്ലാം കീഴടക്കാം എന്നാ ആഗ്രഹത്തില്‍ ആര് വന്നാലും വീണ്ടും അത് വിയോചിപ്പിലേക്ക് നീങ്ങുകയെ ഉള്ളു .സമാധാന ചര്‍ച്ചകള്‍ക്ക് പോലും സമ്മതിക്കാതെ 1934 ഉം പിടിച്ചിരിക്കുന്നവര്‍ ഇപ്പോല്‍ സുപ്രീം കോടതി വിധിയെ ധിക്കരിക്കാന്‍ പുറപ്പെടുന്നു .

malankarajsc said...

സാംജി അങ്ങ് വല്ലപ്പോഴുമെങ്ങിലും വേദപുസ്തകം വായിക്കുന്നത് നന്ന് .അതില്‍ കര്‍ത്താവു കൃത്യമായി പറയുന്നു ."പത്രോസേ നീ പാറയാകുന്നു ഈ പാറമേല്‍ ഞാന്‍ എന്റെ സഭയെ പണിയും ".കൂടാതെ "വീടിന്‍ ഭരണം ശീമോന്" എന്നല്ലേ വിവാഹ കൂടാഷയില്‍ പാടുന്നത് .പിന്നെങ്ങനെ ശ്ലീഹെന്മാര്‍ എല്ലാവരും തുല്ല്യരാവും .

Samji said...

Dear Malankara JSC
You must read Bible carefully! What Jesus Said To Simon Peter "Ber Yohna Simeon,You are Peter"! the word 'Petro' means Stone and not rock! This does not mean that St.Peter is is the rock!The True Rock Is Jesus Christ!Again What ever you are quoting in wedding cerememoney is not Jesus said That was later added/created by Syrian/antioch fathers after 5th centuary!What you said "Pathrosee nee parayakunnu"ennu oly in bible translated by kaniyam Parambil Chor Episcopa!You Read epistle of Ephesians 2:20 and galatians2:9 and 1Peter5:1(st.Peter claims he is co-elder among other Elders of early church)can you quote from bible any single word that Jesus Christ Appointed St.Peter as head of apostles or head of eartly church? It is the faith( read properly the scripture) Which St.Peter confessed on which Church is being built!For self existence,survival and power glory MJOSC church advocating heresy that is what you had quoted here above!so MJSC read bible thoroghly and properly!

Ebenezar said...

Dear Malankara JSC
Jesus did not build his Church on St.Peter!Jesus built his Church on rock of Faith confessed By st.Peter! St.Peter confessed that Jesus is Son of Living true God,the father in heaven read bible thoroughly and clearly!Precisely in short in our mother toungue Malayalam "Viswaasamakunna paramel".The faith in true God must be deeper. Every sunday during Holy qurbana the priest recite this in our Eucharistic liturgy!
Kindly read St.Luke,chapt.22 especially verses 24-34,then you will understand what Jesus Christ taught after Passover his apostles reagrding the Big or greatest among his Disciples!"Kannundayal pora kananam!"this apt here as you don't see or understand what is stated/written in Scriptures!

Ebenezar said...

Dear MalankaraJSC When Jacobite Heirarchy went S/C and asked for a fresh election of Malankara Association or to reconvene Malankara association and S/C gave the verdict for new election under the supreme court observer Why did you people withdrew from such action and formed A soceity church to show you are seperate entity in 2002!
in 1995 S/C asked both factions that they can appoint a tribunal outside the court for setllement of church feud why did you people did not agree to that?After S/C verdict SOC patriarch asked your heirarchy to agree to peace and unity in Malankara why did you reject that? Why did the bulls of SOC partriarch did not read in Churches or why did your Heirarchy in Malakara hide them?When supreme court asked for Peace settlement your heirarchy rejected it and now why you are bothering because of a lower court suggestion!Rejecting Higher court /supreme court verdicts and after elapse of time(12years) coming with new peace suggestion formula for what?

Ravi George said...

Anyone who thinks about the future of Indian church can easily know that Master-Slave relations with Arabs will not work anymore.


Indians of 2010 AD are not like Indian swho live 100 years before.

sampariyarathu said...

Dear RaviGeorge
In Christ there is no master/slave relationship!The future of Indian Christianity depend on Malankara Nazranis!Malankara Nazranis or their heirarchy are not bothered about future of malankara Church/Christianity in India ! What they really look upon the position ,power and Glory for selves!
unfrotunately the SOC heirarchy is also on the same boat! They are not concerned about it! They care themselves!If there is a united Malankara Church in India SOC will not be benefitted! There fore they cause to split the church on unethical,unchristian way to suit their needs!if go the bible there were no disputes over throne/supremacy issue in the beginning!What had to with throne in Antioch with Christians in India?What had to do with priesthood of St.Thomas with throne in Antioch?The Malankara Christians or Nazranis should use their common sense and the word of God for a United church in India!

rajanthomas said...

Dear Nidhin Kallisseri
The Real problem in Malankara are not Syirian Christian /Suriyani Kristanikal! The real issues are (I) Throne in Antoch(which have no basis in Bible)(II)Supremacy of ANTIOCH Patriarch(SOC).(III)Stuaticon/Shamoulsa of SOC/antioch Partriarch Etc,ETC-none of these issueas are not biblical and are against Christ's teachings!these are the Unchristian ego by Jacobites!If they leave those unethical and Non Christian Practices there are no problems in Unity and harmony in Malankara!St.peter preached Jesus Christ the savior! St>thomas preached Same! All apostles preached the same! so in christ there is no syrian.jews or gentile or antiochean or indian

lajy said...

UNITY IS A DAY DREAM IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.IF RESPECTED Patriarch HAS RESPECTED DECOMARACY IN MALANKARA HE WOULD HAVE BEEN THE STRONG CHRISTIAN LEADER IN WORLD.

Samji said...

Dear Lajy
Who is this respected Patriarch to be repected?When did This Partriarh came in Malankara!Jesus did not appoint patriarch to be supreme authority in His church!
In the Name of Throne and patriarch you are rejecting Jesus the Supreme Almighy !What democracy you are talking and preaching here?All is One man show in your Society,and then preaching democracy!
Jesus Christ had 12 Apostles and none of them were head or supreme among them!

mohanmathew said...

Dear Lagy,

I did not get the second part of your posting on Jan 5.

When you say 'Unity will never happen', you are talking against Holy Spirit. The Bible says His Church will become ONE. But we do not know how this will happen.

A few years back, Thomas Pradhaman Thirumeni said in PuthenKurissu "EE SABHAKAL ORIKKALUM ONNAAKILA" . Thsi was reported in Manorama daily.

Some years back, while I was a student in Catholicate College, I went inside a department to get my practical record book signed. There was soem hot discussion going on between some teachers. I heard one young lecturer telling "within a few years all this priesthood will end". After some years I came to know that young lecturer died as an alcoholic. Sadly, he was son a Cor Episcopa!

Nobody can predict tomorrow. We do not know how Christ wil unify His bride. So be careful when we speak words

vincent said...

Dear Mohnan Msathew
It was so interesting that 'The Statement by H.B. Thomas I' "Sabhakal orikkalum yojikkilla"which was reported by Manorama Daily sometimes back as per your comment on Jan5th,2011.If Sabha(church) is body of Christand Christ is head of Church this statement itself is entirely baseless! we don't see Church(Sabha) as body of Christ! we see as different groups or factions attacking each other for position/power/seats/thrones/ and Church propertiers!
We do not fully grasp the meaning of Church! We do not realise or recognise the truth at all!All the time H.B.thomas I group only talk about allegiance to throne in Antioch!I never heard them talking Christ the true God who became man!
As long as We do not really recognise the truth that we are memmbers/organs of BODY OF CHRIST,the feud will continue in Malankara!

eldhose said...

ANGANE KOOTIYOJIPICHITTU VENAM YACOBAYA KARA VEENDUM PATTIKAN.ORU PRAVASHYAM CHAKKA ITTAPOL MUYAL CHATHU ANNU KARUTHI APPOZHUM ATHU NADAKUM ANNU KARUTHIYO? RANDU SABHA KAL AYI PIRIYUNNATHANU NALLATHU.ATHANU JACOBITE PEOPLE NDA AGRAHAM.DELHI IL PATRIYARKEES NA VAZHIKAN ORU VAZHI UNDU. KANJIKUZHI YIL NINNUM KORE ACHAN MAREYUM ALMAYAKAREYUM ANGOTTU KATTI AYACHAL MATHI AVIDA OXIOSE CHOLLUMBOL ADUTHU UYARTHANUM PALLIKAL POOTIKANUM ALUKAL VENAMALLO?

vincent said...

Dear Eldhose
You always talk/write without any logic/common sense!MOSC did not trick you people!It was your Holy Patriarch and your Fathers in Malankara who showed betrayel and greediness!Can you show evidence from Bible That Jesus appointed anybody as Patriarch or Supreme authority in his earthly church?can you show any evidence as from A.D.52 Malankara was under see of Antioch? can you show any evidence from bible that St.Peter established throne in Antioch?you are so ignorant and you just follow blindly antioch throne and patriarch!
first of all you learn what is church(Sabha) basically!then write/comment using common sense!

Samji said...

Dear Malankara JSC and other Jacbites Brethern:
it is all about St.Peter and Keys of Kingdom of Heaven!
In Greek, Peter is Petros(stone)which is related to Petra(rock).this means something which is hard/strong used for construction of buildings!Peter's confession:-Jesus as Messaiah(you are Christ, the son of Living True God).Jesus response statement did not mean that Peter would have greater authority than other11apostles!Nor it did mean that he(peter)would be infallible in his teachings!St.Paul correct him publically(Galatians 2:11-14)Nor It imply anything special about Peter or his successors to present Church/eccleastic administration or office!Although St.Peter has a central role (leader/spokesman) in early church but still he is being sent by other apostles to Samaria(acts 8:14)The Church is being built on fondation of Apostles and Prophets,Jesus Christ himself is the Cornerstone(Ephes 2:20)
Keys of Kingdom of Heaven: Heaven is not an office/house which can be closed or opened by human beings.We Must Understand the real meaning of Heaven in the real sense!Peter is given the authority to admit entrance into the kingdom through preaching gospel!This authority was subsequently granted to all apostles who are called to proclaim the gospel(Mathew 20:18-20)Again the authority of forgiving sins(john 20:21)it is given to all apostles! Although Jesus breathed on them after resurrection to receive the Holy Spirit,The Holy Spirit was filled among them on day of Pentacost! There fore all Disciples(apostles)have the authority to forgive sins!
The "word Kills But the Spirit gives life" People blindly take the lteral meaning! They don't look the Spiritual meaning of Word of God!

bony said...

Somebody wrote in the IOC "malankara sabhapathrika" that a united Malankara Sabha (Bava kakshi+methraan kakshi) will be the most powerful community in kerala, politically, ecnomically and socially. Is it true, or just a proud fancy?

NITHIN said...

nammal ellavarum malankara suriyani nzranikal annu ennu samathikamalo.

lajy said...

IGNORE Partriarh & BLIND FOLLOWERS WHAT WE DONE TO WIN HEART OF JACOBITE PEOPLE UNTIL WE INCREASES ACTIVITES IN NORTH AREA.NOT BUILDING CHRUCH OPPOSITE SIDE OF THEM BRING MORE SOCIAL AWARNESS.

bony said...

മലങ്കര orthodox സഭ കാതോലികായെ വാഴിച്ചത് സഭയുടെ അല്‍മികമായ കാരിയ്കങ്ങള്‍ നടത്തിന് വേണ്ടി ആണല്ലോ,മൂറാന്‍ കൂദാശ തുടെങ്ങിയവ....,

എന്നാല്‍ മലങ്കര jacobites ,മലങ്കര reeth ,തുടെങ്ങിയ സഭകള്‍ എന്തിനാന്നു കാതോലികായെ വാഴിച്ചത് ,അവര്‍ക്ക് അവരുടെ അല്‍മികമായ കാരിയ്കങ്ങള്‍ നടത്തിനുനതിനു patriarchese ,pope തുടെങ്ങിയവര്‍ ഉണ്ടല്ലോ .

മികുവാറും ഇ പോക്ക് പോവാനെങ്കില്‍ syro malabar sabha -um ഒരു patriarchese -നെ വാഴികന്‍ ഇട ഉണ്ട് .

Ebenezar said...

Dear Bony
Now A days Every episcopal Christian sects create Titles such as Catholicose,Pope,pr Patriarch to show own glory,position and power!
Christ did not Appoint Catholicose,Pope or Patriarch to Consecrate Holy Mooron.In the early Church, Elders or overseers(Kassiso/priests) used to do that spiritual requirements!
The question here is That whether two factions of orthodox church in Malankara should unite or stay divided? can you contribute something constructive to this subject/ point?

bony said...

1.ഞാന്‍ ഒന്ന് ചോദിച്ചോട്ടെ യോജിച്ചു കഴിഞ്ഞാല്‍ പിന്നെ മലങ്കര സഭ ആരു ഭരിക്കും മലങ്കര മേട്രപോലിയ്തയും കാതോലികായും അയ palouse2 , അതോ കാതോലികാ അയ thomas 1 -ഓ.
2.മലങ്കര അസോസിയേഷന്‍ തെരിഞ്ഞേയടുകാത്ത അച്ചന്മാരെയും മേട്രപോലിയ്തമാരെയും അങ്ങികരികുമോ .
അതോ, നേരവണം അസോസിയേഷന്‍ തെരിഞ്ഞേയടുകാത്ത അച്ചന്മാരുടേയും മേട്രപോലിയ്തമാരുടേയും പട്ടം അരിച്ചു കളെയുമോ.

അതുകൊണ്ടെ നിങള്‍ തമിള്‍ യോജിച്ചാല്‍ ചില്ലപ്പോള്‍ അതു പലര്‍കും ദോഷമയിട്ടു ഭവിക്കും .അതു മാത്രം അല്ല തോമസ്‌ പ്രദമന്‍ കാതോലിക കാലം ചെയാതെ ഒന്നും നടകില്ല ,

ഇതു ആദി മുതല്‍ അവസാനം വരെ വായിച്ചു നോക്ക്, എനിട്ട്‌ തിരുമാനെക് യോജിച്ചാല്‍ എങനെ ഇരിക്കും എന്ന് .
http://www.malankaraorthodox.tv/Fr.%20Cheeran/Sabha%20Charithram%20Final%20-%208.pdf

Ebenezar said...

Att.Bony
The Unity if Divided Church is based on draft proposalfor a protocol between SOCA and MOSC!
Also based on protocoal betweenCoptic church and Ethiopean Church and Coptic church and Eriterian Church!
THe Most important fact is that church is Body of Christ and we are members/organs of the body of Christ!Jesus Christ is the head of Church!This fundemental/ basic teachings are forgotten by both factions in malankara!
Those who are dividing church on the basis of position and power and self glory are not real Christians!
if Churches in Egypt(coptic)Ethiopea(abysinea)and Eriteria can reach a common treaty why can't the two factions in Malankara follow similar treaty?

bony said...

ok , സമ്മതിക്കുന്നു എല്ലാം ,
പക്ഷെ ഇതു ആരു മുന്‍കെയീ എടുത്തു നടത്തും ,ഇ കാര്യീങ്ങള്‍ ഒകെ ഇവിട് പറഞ്ഞട്ടെ എന്താ കാരിയം.

രണ്ടു വിഭാഗത്തിന്റെയും nethurthathinode ആരു പറയും ഇ കാര്യീങ്ങള്‍ ഒകെ.

Ebenezar said...

Dear Bony
Orthodox Herald is conducting an an opinion poll about unity in Malankara church!I am sure they are forwrading the suggestions to Episcopal Synod of MOSC!
The Leadership of both side will never agree to Unity but now it is the wish or desire of laity to have peace in Malankara!
at the same time both factions leadership are aware of this draft proposal of unity!

MalankaraSyriacOrthodox said...

I have a request to the editors of Malankara Orthodox TV. Rather than asking the question; should we unite to divide; Please ask the question, identify 5 things that you see is very good with the other faction and 5 things that are not so good in your own faction.

The first thing needed is to cultivate, love and respect for each other. Once there is love, peace and unity will defenitely follow.

aby karthikappally said...

Paulouse dvithiyan Catholicayum Ignatius Zakka Prathaman Patriarchisum Kudi Oru Churcha Nadathiyal Malankarayile Prashanagal Avasanikum.....

N.B. Aa Thomas Prathaman Bavaye Charchayude Ezhu Ayalathu Adupikaruthu

vincent said...

Dear Malankara syriac orthodox
whwn you talk about peace and love,first think about it,who destroyed the love and peace in malankara!When Jacobite faction heirarchy is publically telling that IOC/MOSC are enemies and jacobites should not partake in Holy Eucharist of MOSC,what peace/love you are preaching or expecting from them! This does not mean MOSC are blameless or 100%percent perfect!further more division in Malankara are not created by MOSC!Division came due to selfish and vested interest and greediness of some so called spiritual leaders!
First of all try to understand the term "church" in the real sense.Those who does not understand it call for division and disunity!

Manu said...

I am an Orthodox and I am ready to accept Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch as the spiritual father of our church as mentioned in 1934 Constitution. But Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch should accept our Catholicose as his equal and leave all the decisions concerning Malankara Church to Malakara Association, Malankara Episcopal Synod and the Catholicose. If Jacobites are willing to unite based on this agreement, I am all for unity. But if not, my view is that we can divide peacefully. The churches where there are dispute, percentage of faithful belonging to the both factions should be ascertained, faction with most faithful gets the original church properties and the other faction gets an amount proportional to their percentage size. The cemetry issue is a non-solvable issue as the forefathers of faithful of both factions are buried there and most faithful want to be buried at the place of their forefathers. So cemetry can be shared using time arrangement with two factions using different times. In any case, I want to see this dispute to be over once and for all. Our Catholicose should start having talks with Patriarch of Antioch and should develop cordial relations with each other and we should try to accept Patriarch faction in Malankara as our fellow church with warm relations. Only then we will start acting the way Christ taught us to do.

pallykkappyar said...

Ahankarikalee ninakkokke naanamillalloda Yakkobayakkare "YAKKO UPAYAKKAR" "PUTHEN KURISU SOCIETY" "GUNDA PRADHAMAN" thudangiya omanapperukal vilicha naavukondu thanne anuranjanathe patty parayaan. Ningale ppatty Yohannan Snapakan parayunnu "SARPPASANTHATHIKALE AATHYAM POYI MANASANTHARATHINU THAKKA FALAM KAYKKUVIN"

MalankaraSyriacOrthodox said...

Dear Bony,
You say that since the Syro-Malankara has a Catholicose the Syro-Malabar may now install a Patriarch. Honestly the head of the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara Rites have the same rank with in the Catholic hierarchy. They are both Major Arch Bishops. The Major Arch Bishop of Syro Malankara just claimed a title that no body including the Pope had given him. Actually the head of Syro Malabar is not only a Major Archbishop but also a Cardinal. So the head of Syro Malankara can take whatever title he wants, as it stands now in the Catholic hierarchy the head of the Syro Malabar has a higher rank than the head of Syro Malanakra.

I just said that for your information. We dont have to worry about what they do there.

Let us focus on how we can foster, love, mutual respect , peace and ultimately unity among the Orthodox Christians of Malankara.

bony said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
bony said...

ok Ebenezar thnx

Fyodor said...

Am also willing to accept, the Patriach as the SPIRITUAL head of the Malankara Orthodox Church. That has always been the stance of the IOC.

Remember, it is the jacobite faction, themselves, that estrange us from the Syrian chruch. Through their various publications and policies like, not having communion from IOC priests, brawling that we are excommunicated etc etc ....

Joshy said...

Dear All,
What Mr. Manu has said about the peace and love in Malankara Sabha by the grace of God is absolutely a practicble solution, which has already implemented at the Kaniyampetta Church in Wayanad. This should be the mechanism for all dusputed and closed churches throughout in Kerala including Thrikkunnathu seminary, Kolenchery pally, Kadamattam pally etc.
See the following Sites:
(1): http://www.malankarasyriacvoice.com/2011/News/Kaniampatta.JPG
(2): http://www.malankarasyriacvoice.com/2011/News/kaniyambetta.mangalam.jan18.PNG
(3): http://www.malankarasyriacvoice.com/2011/News/kaniyambetta.mano.jan18.PNG

Joshy

Ebenezar said...

Dear Pallikapyar
you should not get annoyed or disturbed yourselves!Your own jacobite people started it first calling names or using illicitor abusive language especially in blog commentsof MOTV, in addresing our head of church ,their place of residency and even our fathers who had left their earthly abode here!Even now your official publications(jacobite church) are using the same style and language! As christians both factions should not involve in those kind of activities, abusive language! Then What you quoted fron Bible still applicable to you and your own church also!St.Paul said in his episle to Romans "There is no one who is righteous,no who is worshipping God in righteoes Way,All have turned away from God,they have all gone wrong"
So first correct self,then correct others!

MalankaraSyriacOrthodox said...

Bony,
In apostolic christianity there are only three priestly orders:
1) Deacon
2) Priest
3) Bishop
Arch Bishop, Catholicose, Patriarch, Pope etc are all Bishops and in that sense equals. But for administrative purpose there are first among equals. The first among the equal will chair the Synod. There is no question of who is superior and inferior. Regarding the question of first among equals there is no confusion with in the Orthodox Syriac tradition.

If sometime in the future, the Roman church were to reject all their heresies including the Tome of Leo and confess the true faith of the three councils, then the Bishop of Rome (Pope) will have the position of first among equals, in the whole Church.

vincent said...

Dear Pallikapyar
It is not MOSC people who are proud! It is your own Jacobite Church,heirarchy,clergy and some laymen who are proud and show that everywhere where they live!
(i)calling yourselves as Jacobite but never show any attitude or gesture of Jacob Bardius(yakkob burdhana (ii)Throne of antioch: There is no mention about it in the new testament by any apostles!Jesus gave throne to his apostles each carefully read gospel according to Luke 22:28
and study well!
(III)Priesthood: Priest hood of Jesus Christ is eternal and he gave to all 12 Apostles! also refer Holy Qurbana song "adyaacharyawtham Kaikonduu,Aharon moosahayodinnichu........Yohannan karthavinnum,Kartha than sleehanmarkum"
(iv)Supremacy of St.peter:- St.Peter claimed himself as a Co-eleder among other elders of early church(iPeter5:1)and a bondservant of Jesus Christ!
(v) Church of Christ were formed in Jerusalem and Jerusalem is the Mother Church!Antioch is not mother Church as allegedly claimed by Jacobites!The first council of early church decisions were written and handed over to St.Paul and Barnabas to deliver to Antioch and the council were presided by James,the Cousin brother of Jesus Christ,who was the first Bishop of Jerusalem! After the council,Paul and Timothy,delivered to the believers the rules decided upon by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem(church in Jerusalem)and told them to obey those rules!
(to continue)

vincent said...

Dear Pallikapyar(part II)Jacibites in Malankara formed a society in Puthencruz in 2002 to show and convince public they are seperate from MOSC as well as to escape from S/C verdict and get exempted in paying courtfees!So if people call you as a society,why should you get annoyed! You think only Jacobites are saints, sinless,pure and true Christians!Your fathers in the past did hire killers and killed many innocent people of MOSCprior 1958! now who hired Killers? who hid them in churches? who used Charity money to hire killers?However if you were true Christians you could have showed and proved people in Malankara by your actions!even you yourselves called,MOSC head as KANJIKKUZHY CATHOLICOSE! You are Are another HYPOCRYTE! first remove log from your own eyes and then try to remove speck from neighbours eyes!
Jesus said to Pharsee and scribes that tax collectors/and adulterers will enter/inherit the Kingdom of God but the scribes and Pharisee would not do that! by your own actions in this blog you have proved yourselves who are snakes or discendants of snakes!

pallykkappyar said...

Some great men gave me a “PATTAM” hypocrite here. If I was a hypocrite, ninne okke theiri vilichittu njaaanum paranjene , “SAMADHANAM” “ANURANJANAM” ennellam. But I did not do that, because I believe that I don’t deserve it. I am a sinner and I am not eligible to look at the face of my Almighty Father. “Chunkakkarum vesyakalum ningalkku munpe swarga raajyathil kadakkum” ennu Dhaivam parayunnu. “ Ee manal tharikalil ninnu Abrahaminu makkale srishtikkuvan thaivathinu kazhiyum” ennu Yohannan snaapakan parayunnu. I BELIEVE THAT “PARAYN” “PULAYAN” AND “VETTUVAN” WILL ENTER IN THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM BEFORE WE ENTER. I am not here for an argument and I heard a story about Mahatma Gandhi, when I was in the school. There was a mother brought her son to Gandhi to advise him against eating too much sugar and sweets. Gandhi asked her to bring him back after one month. And lady brought the son after one month and Gandhi advised him about the bad side effects of eating too much sugar and lately the child discontinued that bad habit. Later Gandhi was asked about why he said to come back after one month and he said, he himself has that bad behavior and he need to stop it before advising others. My Orthodox brothers and sisters, create the atmosphere of peace and harmony before doing anything. (manasantharathinu thakka falam kaykkuvin) Then talk about the peace and people will listen you.

vincent said...

Dear Pallikapyar
When I stated the Truth you wrote that you are given a Title(pattam)!"Vadi koduthu adivangichittu" then write/comment something for what?You don't need to repeat once again Holy words from Bible here! The repentence is required by both faction followers!MOSC did not come to attack you or used abusive words/language! It was Jacobite people from the beginning used abusive languages/words in MOTV Blog comments!You should first of all relinquish your big mentality/gesture(Valliatten)!That be: You people can do,say or act anything the way you would like do/wish! at the same time MOSC should keep quiet just like Small children!hatred or enemity are done and created by your Church/people in Malankara!
You /Yourseves not shown any gesture /mentality of reconciliation/unity !then Why did you critisize others?All Blog created by MOTV your people abused MOSC or its heirarchy/clergy!In 1958 the reconciliation /peace movement shown by your people or Antioch PatriarchL/L Yakkob III were mere drama for self existence your faction!Had your Church heirarchy really followed any Bible teachings/ principles in solving the Church fued in Malankara for the last 100 Years?
I have already told/informed my Church heirarchy about my stand for peace and reconcilation in church feud especially the disputed/closed churches in Malankara!So God knows my mind/concsious and attiude/gesture! I am not great or big man! I am not blamess/sinless!

vincent said...

Dear Pallykapyar
you try to watch some vedeos in Youtube uploaded by your fellow jacobites"the ex-communicated garbage club(patmvow)and kanjikuzhi katholica and children in sehion malika(shinosphilip)under banner Malankara jacobite Church songs!these are the work of so called followers of "Yakkoob burdhana" in Malankara and the way they are doing /behaving!Sons and daughters of True living God!shame on you people!
Also go through varius blogs of MOTV then you can realise how your own fellow people are behave in public through media!! Then judge others!In the name of peace,unity or reconciliation MOSC are not showing contempt and hatred!Your people are inviting those through their actions /comments or inciting our people to do that!

Kannadi said...

കോടതി വിധികളോ, ഭരണഘടനയോ, ഒത്തുതീര്പ്പ് വ്യവസ്ഥകളോ നെല്ലിട പോലും മാനിക്കാത്ത മെത്രാന്‍ വേഷധാരികളായ അധര്മിയകളുമായി വീണ്ടുമൊരു ഒത്തുതീര്പ്പി ന് പോകന്നത് ശരിയായ കാര്യമാണോ? നിയമത്തിന്റൊ വഴിയില്‍ പോയാല്‍ ഒന്നും ലഭിക്കുകയില്ലെന്നു മനസ്സിലായപ്പോള്‍ സഭയുടെ സ്വത്തുക്കള്‍ തട്ടിയെടുക്കാനുള്ള എളുപ്പ മാര്ഗ്ഗം - ഒത്തുതീര്പ്പ് , അത് മനസ്സിലിരിക്കട്ടെ.
മനുഷ്യരെ തെറ്റിദ്ധരിപ്പിച്ചും പ്രലോഭിപ്പിച്ചും സഭയുടെ സ്വത്തുക്കള്‍ കൊള്ളയടിക്കാമെന്ന വ്യാമോഹം മാറി വെച്ചേക്കുക.
മലങ്കര സഭാ മക്കള്‍ ഇവരുടെ ധ്രുംഷ്ടകള്‍ കണ്ടു ഭയപ്പെടുകയോ ഇവരുടെ കുതന്ത്രങ്ങളില്‍ വീഴുക്ഴ്യോ ചെയ്യാതെ ധൈര്യമായിരിക്കണം.

vincent said...

Dear Kannadi
We know what had happened in the past,we know the reason/circumstances why Jacobite Heirarchy submitted to High Court a panel of Mediators of their choice for peace!There is another court case in which they poured Hotwater on a MOSC priest who was going to celeberate the Holy Qurbana,they also beated him thoroughly over his head!This how followers of Jacob Burdhana in Malankara worship Christand behave themselves!These are people at the same time call MOSC as brood of vipers and tell MOSC people to repent!
According to Pallikapyar all the people of his faction church are sinless and blameless!MOSC are sinners/immoral, and then we invite/call them(jacobites) for reconciliations without an aura of peace!
But I Pray sincerely that God will unite Malankara christians one day for his Glory !

pallykkappyar said...

"URANGUNNAVARE UNARTHAM, URAKKAM NADIKKUNNAVAREYOO?
Dear Brother Vincent,
This is just a verbal argument behind the curtain. Lets both disclose our identity here and have a telephone conversation directly. I can clarify you directly instead of showing "Kasarathu". We are more interested to do a direct deal instead of anonymous writings. Hope "EVERYBODY" will realize it soon. Let me know.

Kannadi said...

ഏതൊരു സമൂഹത്തിലും മോശമായി സംസാരിക്കുകയും പെരുമാറുകയും ചെയ്യുന്ന ആള്‍ക്കാരുണ്ട്. പക്ഷെ അത് അവരുടെ തന്നെ സ്വഭാവ ഗുണത്തെയാണ് കാണിക്കുന്നതെന്ന വസ്തുത പലപ്പോഴും മറന്നു പോകുന്നു. പ്രത്യേകിച്ചും ഒരു കൂട്ടം മനുഷ്യരുടെ നേതൃത്വം വിവേക ശൂന്യരും കാപട്യം നിറഞ്ഞവരും ദുര്‍മോ ഹികളുമായാല്‍ അവര്‍ താഴുക തന്നെയല്ല മറ്റുള്ളവരെയും സാരമായി അത് ബാധിക്കുകയും ചെയ്യും. ഇതാണ് ഇന്നത്തെ യക്കൊബായക്കാരുടെ പ്രശ്നം, മലങ്കര സഭയുടെയും. പാത്രിക്കീസു ബാവായ്ക്കും അന്ത്യോക്യായ്ക്കും കീ ജയ്‌ വിളിക്കുന്ന ഇവര്‍ അദ്ദേഹത്തെ അനുസ്സരിക്കാത്തവരും വഴക്കടിക്കുന്നവരുമാണെന്ന് ആനുകാലിക സംഭവങ്ങള്‍ ചൂണ്ടിക്കാട്ടുന്നു. ഈ നേതാക്കളുടെ 'മാസ്മര'വിദ്യയാല്‍ ചതിക്കുഴിയില്‍ കിടക്കുന്ന ഒരുപാട് നല്ലവരായ മനുഷ്യര്‍
യാക്കൊബായക്കാരുടെ ഇടയിലുണ്ട്. ഒരിക്കല്‍ പാത്രിക്കീസ്സു ബാവാ തന്നെ പ്രശ്ന പരിഹാരം നടത്തിയതാണ്. പക്ഷെ ദുര്‍മോഹികള്‍ക്ക് അതിഷ്ടമായില്ല. അവര്‍ പ്രശ്നങ്ങള്‍ വീടും കുത്തിപ്പൊക്കി. സമാധാനം ആഗ്രഹിച്ച പത്രിക്കീസ്സു ബാവായെ അവര്‍ കുരുക്കിലാക്കി, അങ്ങനെ മലങ്കര സഭയെയും. മലങ്കര സഭയെ എത്ര മാത്രം നാറ്റിക്കാന്‍ ശ്രമിച്ചാലും അന്തിമ വിജയം ഇവര്‍ക്ക് കിട്ടുകയില്ലെന്നു ഓര്‍ക്കുന്നത് നല്ലതായിരിക്കും. പുത്തെന്കുരിശു സൊസൈറ്റിയുടെ നേതൃത്വം നല്ലൊരു ജനക്കൂട്ടത്തെ തിന്മയിലേക്ക് നയിക്കുകയാണെന്ന വസ്തുത കാലം തെളിയിച്ചു തരും.

vincent said...

Dear Pallikapyar
Nobody is pretending to be sleeping!everybody is awake!
there is all possibility of open dicussion in the precious/ glorious Name of our redeemer Jesus Christ!Know Christ then there is peace!No Christ there is no peace!let the two factions in Malankara come together and pray in Jesus's name! Then God will hear our prayers!In the absence of that no need of mediators or reconciliation !

Zach George Arapura said...

Dear brothers in lord,
please watch the linked video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_PqQeOksZM
There will not be any peace between the respected factions if peoplw like this spew poison.

lajy said...

unity never happen its day dream until they have faith in st thomas who they consider not equal to st peter once thing we must proud till now they consider indians.we must blame our own system in the country .this type foolishnes will not happen any country .

Ebenezar said...

Dear All
This Year(2011)Thrikkunnathu Seminary Perunnal for security arrangements the police dept of Kerala spent 8 Laks rupees as per Mathrubhoomi Daily!This amount police dept is going to charge both factions of church in Malankara!Are we consider this unnecessary spending only for 10 minutes Incence prayer at the tomb of late/lamented Holy fathers!No body can enter in the church or chapel for prayers or liturgical service!Are we Christians? are we children of God?Do we follow Christ?Jesus will never accept these incence prayers at the tomb out of hatred and contempt! Realise the truth!one of the faction claims that more than5000 people participated in the feast of late holy fathers!
Surely none of this people are going to inherit the kingdom of God as there were no peace or harmony in the prayer service or incence prayers!Stop all this mimick and repent!

Ebenezar said...

Dear Zach George Arapura
If We (laity )come together and we have to pressure on this type of clergy to understand and know Christ!This is root cause of all troubles in Malankara! This clergy should read understand What Jesus said in Mathew 5:38-41,rather than take the sword himself!Let us Pray together for Changing their attitude!

Fyodor said...

@ Zach Varghese

Their will indeed be no unity.. people who write NONSENSE in SOCM YAHOO forum also should stop spewing venom ...

Compare SOCM with ICON

Compare Vishwasasomrakshakan with Malankara Sabha Patrika

Compare Syriac Voice with MoTV

Check out all the bloody videos on Youtube

And LET ME KNOW, who is spewing venom ?

NITHIN said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
sam said...

Dear All
Majority of MOSC people are for unity!They are not for Dusunity or for War! Please read the news of SABHA SAMADHANA SAMITHI resolutions at Kochi recently!
May Almighty God help us to maintain peace and harmony among Malankara Syrian Christians!

Innocent said...

One of my friend from the Orthodox faction told me after hearing the speach at Manjikara that our Gregorios Thirumeni should be renamed as Joseph Mar Gibbels. I don't know why he said until I heard this speach. Personally Thirumeni don't you feel this was a bit extra. I feel he forgot where he speaking and what the occassion was. I somehow felt that he was trying to impress on our Shreshta Bava to become our next Bava. Mar Diascoros was also not far behind. But can he be considered to become the next catholicose

Avarachayan said...

എടാവേ ഈ സമാധാന വേദി, വിഭജന വേദി, ഐക്യ വേദി ആളുകള്ക്ക്േ വീട്ടില്‍ വേറെ പണിയൊന്നും ഇല്ലഞ്ഞിട്ടാണോ വെട്ടാന്‍ വരുന്ന പോതുകളോട് വേദം ഓതാന്‍ നടക്കുന്നത്.

ഞാന്‍ കുറെ കാലം ഈ കൂട്ടങ്ങളുടെ കൂടെ പള്ളികള്‍ പിടിക്കാന്‍ നടന്നതാണ്. എനിക്ക് നന്നായി അറിയാം എങ്ങിനെ ആണ് മലങ്കര സഭയുടെ പള്ളികള്‍ യാക്കോബായ ഗ്രൂപുകളുടെ കയ്യില്‍ പെട്ടതെന്ന്. നമ്മുടെ തോമസ്‌ പ്രഥമന്‍ ചുവന്ന കുപ്പായം ഇട്ടു വന്നപ്പോള്‍ ഞാനും എന്റെ അപ്പനും അങ്ങേരുടെ കൂടെ കുറെ കാലം ഉണ്ടായിരുന്നു മലബാറിലെ പള്ളികള്‍ എല്ലാം പൂട്ടിക്കാന്‍ നടന്നപ്പോള്‍. കുറെ പള്ളികള്‍ പൂട്ടിക്കാന്‍ പറ്റി. കുറെ എണ്ണം പിടിച്ചെടുക്കാനും കഴിഞ്ഞു. നൂറനാല്‍ അച്ഛനെ പോലെ ഉള്ള അച്ചന്മാരുടെ അടുത്ത് കളി നടന്നില്ല. കളിയ്ക്കാന്‍ ചെന്ന ഒരു അച്ഛന്‍-സണ്ണി- നാട്ടുകാരുടെയോ പോലീസിന്റെയോ അതോ രക്ത സാക്ഷിയാക്കാന്‍ സ്വന്തം ആളുകളുടെയോ അടി കൊണ്ട് തെങ്കിന്‍ ചുവട്ടില്‍ മരിച്ചു കിടക്കേണ്ടി വന്നു.

ഇതെല്ലാം മറന്നിട്ടാണോ ഇപ്പോഴും ഇത്ട്ടിങ്ങള്‍ ഈ കളിക്കുന്നത്. ചെനയപ്പിള്ളി അച്ഛന്‍ ക്ലാസ് എടുത്തു എന്ന് കണ്ടപ്പോള്‍ തന്നെ ഇവര്ക്ക്ച മൂത്രം ഒഴിക്കാന്‍ മുട്ടി തുടങ്ങി. കോഴി കട്ടവന്റെ തലയില്‍ അല്ലെ പൂട ഉണ്ടാവുകയുള്ളൂ. സമാധാനം ആഗ്രഹിക്കുന്നത് കൊണ്ടാണ് കോടതി യില്‍ കേസ് കൊടുത്തു മലങ്കര സഭയുടെ പള്ളികള്‍ ഈ ഒരു ഗ്രൂപ്പുകളുടെ കയ്യില്‍ നിന്നും വീണ്ടെടുക്കാന്‍ ചെനയപ്പിള്ളി അച്ഛന്‍ പറയുന്നത്. പാവം യാക്കോബായ കുഞ്ഞാടുകള്‍ വിചാരിക്കുന്നത് പള്ളികള്‍ പൂട്ടിക്കനാനെന്നു. എന്ത് ചെയ്യാം.

തോമസ്‌ പ്രഥമന്‍ എന്തെല്ലാം വിളിച്ചു കൂവുന്നു. അതും നാണമില്ലാതെ നടുറോഡില്‍ നിന്ന് കൊണ്ട്. പക്ഷെ നമുക്ക് മനസ്സിലാക്കാവുന്നതെ ഉള്ളു നാലാം ക്ലാസ് വിവരം. എന്ന് വച്ച് സാധാരണ ജനങ്ങള്‍ ഈ കുരിശു വഹിക്കണമോ. എന്ത് ചെയ്യാം തലേ വിധി.

Avarachayan said...

യാക്കോബായ ആളുകള്‍ പറയുന്നത് ഞങ്ങള്‍ വേറെ സഭയാണ്. എങ്കില്‍ പിന്നെ എന്തിനാണ് മലങ്കരസഭയുടെ പള്ളികളില്‍ കയറി ഇരിക്കുന്നത്.ആരെങ്കിലും എതിര് നിന്നാല്‍ പറയും ഞങ്ങള്‍ മലങ്കര സഭയുടെ വിഖടിത ഗ്രൂപ്പ് ആണെന്ന്. ഇവരുടെ നേതാക്കാന്‍ മാര്‍ എല്ലാവരും ഇത് തന്നെ ആണ് പറഞ്ഞു നടക്കുന്നത്. ഇങ്ങനെ എന്തിനു കള്ളം പറഞ്ഞു നോലോളിച്ച് നടക്കണം. കൈയൂക്ക് കൊണ്ട് പിടിച്ചെടുത്തു കഴിഞ്ഞു ഇപ്പോള്‍ ഞങ്ങളുടെ പള്ളിയില്‍ പ്രശ്നം ഇല്ല എന്ന് പറയുന്നതില്‍ എന്ത് അര്ഥംണ. പ്രശ്നം ഇല്ലാത്ത പള്ളികളില്‍ ഓര്ത്തതഡോക്‌്ിയകാര്‍ കേസ് കൊടുക്കുന്നു എന്ന് കൂവുന്നു ഇപ്പോള്‍. പിന്നെ എന്ത് ചെയ്യണം. എല്ലാം യകൊബായ ഗ്രൂപ്പുകാര്ക്ക് കൊടുക്കണോ.

ഞാന്‍ പള്ളിക്കര പള്ളിയില്‍ അംഗം ആണ്. പക്ഷെ യാക്കോബായ പക്ഷം/ സഭ അല്ല. എന്താണ് ആ പള്ളിയില്‍ പ്രശ്നം ഉണ്ടാകാത്തത്. ഒരു അന്തോക്യ ഭക്തി കൊണ്ട് ഒന്നും അല്ല. ആ പള്ളിയോടുള്ള ഒരു മാനസിക വികാരം കൊണ്ടാണ്. അല്ലാതെ എത്ര പേര്ക്ക് ആ പള്ളിയില്‍ അവരുടെ തിരുമേനി ഏതാണെന്ന് അറിയാം. കഷ്ടം!!!! ഇപ്പോഴും തോമസ്‌ പ്രഥമന്‍ എന്ന് പറഞ്ഞാല്‍ പലര്ക്കും ആള്ളിയില്‍ അറിയില്ല. ദീവന്നസിയോസ് എന്ന് പറഞ്ഞാലേ അറിയൂ. ആര്ക്കും സഭ എന്താണെന്നോ ഏതാണെന്നോ അറിയില്ല. ഒന്നേ അറിയുകയുള്ളു, മെത്രാന്‍ കക്ഷി ബാവ കക്ഷി. ഇതാണ് പഠിപ്പിച്ചു വച്ചിരിക്കുന്നത്. ഹേ യാക്കോബായ സുറിയാനിക്കരാ ലജ്ജിക്കുക. എന്തിനു ഇനിയും മലങ്കര സഭയെ ദ്രോഹിക്കണം.

mohanmathew said...

Sahodaranmaar Otthorumicchu Vasikkunnathu......THAT IS PEACE

First let the rebels in the Jacobite camp understand the meaning of PEACE.

Peace is not required for division. Peace and Division are NOT compatible. PEACE is required only for UNITY. What is the meaning of Peace witout UNITY.

We read in the Bible that Christ is the Prince of PEACE. Church is HIS BRIDE, His indivisible BODY. Who has the right to DIVIDE it?

If we can make Peace, why not UNITY? The enemies of UNITY and PEACE are enemies of Christ. God wil wipe them out.

Soem people want to spread teh idea that PEACE and UNITY are impossible

mohanmathew said...

SUPPOSE If Christ returns tonight, what wil be His priority, UNITY or DIVISION?
Let the Antioch Patrarch, HH Paulose II Catholica Bava, HB Thomas I Thirumnei together call for UNITY and PEACE if they are TRUE FOLLOWERS of CHRIST

mohanmathew said...

Divisiion comes from SATAN

UNITY with Peace comes from GOD.

George Achen, Ireland said...

'Peace' comes not from the absence of conflict in life but from the ability to cope with it.

-George Achen,Ireland.

George Achen, Ireland said...

I wish these bishops had learned the following holy verses from the Bible Mat 5:9 and 1 Cor 13:13.

panicker said...

ഇദ്ദേഹം തിരുമേനിയോ രാഷ്ടീയക്കാരനോ?
ഒരു ധ്യാന പ്രസം ഗം നടത്തുന്നതിനു പകരം വിഷം കുത്തി വയ്ക്കുന്നു.

Thomaskutty said...

I dont know y or wat 4 unneccesarily v r creating troubles for jacobites..i think whatever they are telling or whatever mar joseph gregorios told is true only...its a fact which we should admit that we should be seperated or should stand as different churches....I m sure if v unite also it will never lasts for long

Joe G. said...

"Our effort should be to restore peace in the church, not to run away from the church. Our suggestion is that both sides should make some compromises so that the integrity of the church is not affected. We should not try to aggravate our differences by going on litigation. We exhort you to pray hard for peace and unity in the church, this being the season of lent. May the grace and blessings of the Almighty continue to be showered on us." H.G. Kuriakos Mar Gregorios (Pampady Thirumeni)

Kaduvakulam said...

Thrikunnathu issac cori nadathiya poolathe dhyana prasangam anooo chetta udeshichathu.
Ref: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsRh_n7VG9I

Isaac said...

Friends,
Really sad! Really very sad indeed to see both our Bishops their Graces Mor Gregorios and Mor Diascorous forgetting the solemn occasion of the Dukhrono of H.H. Elias III Bava, in which both these Bishops was partaking and it was certainly sad to see that not a word in their speeches were reflected from the Bible or on the teachings of Jesus or on the exemplary life of the Saints which the faithful who had gathered for this solemn function should take up for the their Spiritual nourishment. Most of the faithful went back with the seeds of hatred and the pangs of jealousy planted in them by the reverend bishops. Thanks to the Bishops. Our LORD alone knows how these bishops will give account for their acts and hate inspiring speeches in the day of resurrection and judgment. How can we stand behind these bishops in prayer? From the video the way H.G. Mor Gregorios flattered H.B. Thomas1 and kept looking at him after each sentence of flatter, gave most of us the impression that H.G. Mor Gregorios was soaping and buttering H.B. Thomas 1for the Successor post.

-Page 2
Isaac Joseph. K.

Isaac said...

Page 2
But, why inject venom and hatred among our people and keep dragging the faithful mentioning that people are the strength? H.B. Mor Diascorous is not way behind as he with expertise slowly and very slyly injected poison into our faithful. Don’t these bishops read the Bible and sincerely pray? Or are they not aware of the love Jesus speaks in the Bible? Sure they do not, because they do not have the time to read the Bible and Pray as they are engaged in attractions of this world and have no time to take up the Cross and follow our LORD. These Bishops are out here to instigate the majority of our poor faithful who yearn for peace with our brethren and relatives. REAL SHAME ON OUR HIGH PRIESTS. If it was the High Priest who instigated the people and demanded the Crucification of Jesus around 2010 years ago, today in these speeches we find the same High Priests in the form of Mor Gregorios and Mor Diascorous in their speeches who instigate the people and demand to crucify Jesus’ Church in Malankara founded by his apostle St. Thomas.
Not a word of Christian love or Christian living or Christian sharing or dedicated heart moving prayers could be heard from the mouth of these Bishops on this great occasion in both their 32 minute speech put together.
Shame on our High Priests. Really shame.
Let God be the Judge.

Isaac Joseph. K.

mohanmathew said...

Jacobite Church already got a separate constitution, an independent system. They are already separated and is considered an 'independent' Church. Then, why they want to divide Malankara Chucrh?

That means a Church which is already an independent wants to cut a portion of the Malnkara Church and merge with the existing Jacobite Church. Why should it be allowed?

Le them look at the DANGER of doing it...
If the Jacobites wants to remain and exist as an independent, let the forfeit their claims in Malankara Church. This is what marthoma Church did and they survived.
Now if the Jacobites with their 'constitution' keeps fighting the Orthdox Church, they face the fate of total liquidity in the near future.

mohanmathew said...

Last two times (1958 and 1970), the unity was achived quicky after the court veridct. But this kind of quick merger did not happen after the Supre Court verdict in 1995. Now 15 years haved passed. next merger will be last and final. That is why it is taking a long time. All the isseus are slowly being discuused and when the merger is over no issue will remain. LET US NOT LOSE CONFIDENCE. LET US KEEP PRAYING FOR UNITY AND PEACE

mohanmathew said...

Last two times (1958 and 1970), the unity was achived quicky after the court veridct. But this kind of quick merger did not happen after the Supre Court verdict in 1995. Now 15 years haved passed. next merger will be last and final. That is why it is taking a long time. All the isseus are slowly being discuused and when the merger is over no issue will remain. LET US NOT LOSE CONFIDENCE. LET US KEEP PRAYING FOR UNITY AND PEACE

Pillerdachan said...

Orthodox karkku nammaloodulla ee sneham kaanumpol kuliru koriyidunnu. Avarkku nammale kallyanam kazhiche okkoo ennu oree vasi. "EE SNEHATHINU MUNPIL NJANGAL THOTTU POKUNNU CHETTAN MAREEE".

Avarachayan said...

ആ രണ്ടു ചുവന്ന കുപ്പയക്കാരുടെ പ്രസംഗം കേട്ട് അത്ഭുതപ്പെടാന്‍ ഒന്നുമില്ല പിള്ളേരെ. ഇവന്മാരുടെ തിരുമേനി ആവാന്‍ ഉള്ള യോഗ്യത ഇതൊക്കെയാണ്. ഒരു മെത്രാന്‍ ഉണ്ടല്ലോ - എല്യാസ് മാര്‍ അതനസ്യോസ്, അങ്ങേരു എങ്ങിനെയാണ് മെത്രാനായത് എന്ന് തിരക്കിയാല്‍ മനസ്സിലാകും. രണ്ടെന്നങ്ങള്‍ മഞ്ഞനിക്കരയില്‍ നിന്ന് ഒലിയിട്ടത് വെറുതെ അല്ല. സഭ യോജിച്ചാല്‍ ഇവര്ക്ക് ജയ്‌ വിളിക്കാന്‍ ആരെയാണ് കിട്ടുക.
എന്നാലും ഒരു വല്ലാത്ത ജന്മങ്ങള്‍ തന്നെ. മലങ്കര സഭയുടെ പള്ളികളില്‍ കുടിയിരുന്നു കൊണ്ട് ഞങ്ങള്ക്ക്് പിരിയണം എന്ന് പറയുന്നു. നാണമുണ്ടെങ്കില്‍ ഇവര്‍ സ്വന്തമായി വേറെ പള്ളികള്‍ വച്ച് കൂടെ പോരാന്‍ തയ്യാറായ ആളുകളെ കൂടെ കൂട്ടി പോവുകയില്ലേ. അതിനു ധൈര്യമില്ലല്ലോ. ഒരെണ്ണം പോകുമോ സ്വന്തം പള്ളികള്‍ വിട്ടിട്ടു ഈ മെത്രാന്‍മാരുടെ കൂടെ. ഇവര്ക്ക് ഒരു അഡ്രസ്‌ ഇപ്പോള്‍ ഉള്ളത് തന്നെ ഓര്ത്ത ഡോക്സ്്‌ സഭ ഉപേക്ഷിച്ചു കളഞ്ഞ കളിയാക്കല്‍ പേര് ഉള്ളത് കൊണ്ടാണ്. അല്ലാതെ ഈ മെത്രാന്മാ രെ ആര് അറിയാന്‍. അറിയുന്നത് തന്നെ ഗുണ്ടാ മെത്രാന്മാരര്‍ എന്നും, പുതെന്‍ കുരിശു മെത്രാന്മാചര്‍ എന്നും ഒക്കെയാണ്. പുതെന്‍ കുരിശു എന്ന് കേള്ക്കു മ്പോള്‍ തന്നെ ഇപ്പോള്‍ ഒരു ഞെട്ടല്‍ ആണ്.

Arun said...

Avarachayanu(Joicemon) oru thiruthundu. Aathyam St.Elias Jacobite Cathedral, Kottayam Jacobite Cheriyapally, Chandanappally Jacobite church, Chengannur Jacobite valiyapally thudangiya njangalude pallikalil ninnu ningal kattem padom madakki irangi swanthamayi pally vackumpol ningalude Manarcadu St. Mary's Orthodox church, Kothamangalam Marthoman Orthodox church, Karingachira Orthodox church, Mulanthuruthy orthodox church thudangiya ningalude pallikalil ninnu njangalum irangi tharam achaaaya......."Appol Kali Samam Samam"

pallykkappyar said...

Mone pillerdacha....sneham moothu vattaayatha ithinokke.....nakki kollum.....chooduvellathil veena chief editor ippol pacha vellam kandalum pedickum......

Vayaliparamban said...

Don't speak Vedam to Buffalo's which means Pothinody Vedum Otharuthey.
How can you expect these Terrorist Bishops to speak about peace and Bible on the occasion of Manjinikara Perumal. After Abdulla he was at the helm of affairs for 15 years. What was the status in Malankara during his time. If he had the slightest concern for the people of Malankara he would have negotiated for peace. Even when he came to die where he diedwas he interested in it. Never. Then how can one expect to hear messages with peace. Remember what our Lord has said in St.Mathew 10:41. So those people who receiveth such a man will get his qualities. That is all what Gregorios and Diascors did.

Ebenezar said...

Dear All
The present Jacobite Church Faction and its heirarchy and some Brigadiers/chevelliars don't like any unity!They only want to get share in MOSC properties/churches!For this sharing they need peace or mediators! leave them alone!Those people think they are the only sacred people of Christ!But they don't follow the way of Christ!They think church is a political party and they work like poiticians!May almighty God convince them about Truth and Way!

NITHIN said...

ഇവിടെ originally ആരാ സഭ വിട്ടു പോയവര്‍ -ഇപ്പോഴാതെ jacobakar ആണോ അതോ ,-ഇപ്പോഴാതെ orthodoxkar ആണോ ,
.
orthodoxkaru പറയുന്നു jacobakaru ആണ് സഭ വിട്ടു പോയവരെന്നു ,.,jacobakaru പറയുന്നു orthodoxkaru ആണ് സഭ വിട്ടു പോയവരെന്നു

ശരിക്കും ആരാ സഭ വിട്ടു പോയവര്‍?

mohanmathew said...

It seems that Jacobite rebel leaders have already lost their morale and strength. Faithful know if they continue to follow them, they would soon fall into a big pit. It is believed that impossible for Jacobite rebel leaders to regain the confidence they lost.

Public talk about many issues like playing emotional games, CBI investigation & chargesheet in Malankara Varghese case, 'Procedures' in the selection of Bishops, Media manipulations, power struggles among bishops, Autocratic methods of one metran, subservience to foreigners, misappropriations of church funds, Delimiation of Arch Dioceses of America, Europe, Gulf etc, Increasing legal expenses, growing people-to-peopel contact between Orthodox & Jacobites, fading glory of Antioch, awareness of LIBERTY, and National identity of INDIA, Economic independence, theological and spiritual advancements, Continuous success of Othodox Church in various isseus....
People say all these issues had an impact. Are they the exact reasons? ONLY TIME WILL TELL

mohanmathew said...

Nithin

This Church has a constitution unanimously acpted by all. Even Thomas I bav of teh jacobiet Church gave an affidavit in court that he goes by that. teh broken away groups of Jacobies had rejoined the Church accepting the 1934 constitution in 1958 and 1970. Whatever position they claim due to Patriarch and Antioch is due to this constitution ONLY. teh Supreme Court too upheld it.

Now certain Jacobiet leadfers broke away and formed a 'constitution' in 2002. You tell who broke away form whom?

mohanmathew said...

SUPREME COURT has made it clear that ANTIOCH leader patriarch does not ahave any temporal powers in India. Whatever power authorised by the Supreme Court was due to 1934 constitution ONLY. So the Antioch Patriarch is bound by the 1934 constitution. 1934 Constittion REINS. Patriarch cannot interefer in Malnkara violatingthis constitution. Patriarch is governed by this constitution.

Innocent said...

Nithin,
I feel it is Knananayakar

Abraham said...

The secret payment of Patriarch Elias Shaker for denying the Assyrian genocide Seyfo
Did you know that the Syrian Orthodox Patriarch Elias III Shaker secretly got paid by Turkey to deny Seyfo and to stay loyal to the republic? New documents previously classified show that our church leaders played a bigger role than we have known, when the Assyrians were deprived of their minority rights in Turkey. Journalist Augin Kurt has taken a closer look at what has been revealed in the new documents.
In 1892, nearly 300 000 Syrian Orthodox Christians in Afghanistan converted to Islam. Reason: The rivalry between the Patriarchates in Mardin and Turabdin.
The Christians in Afghanistan belonged to the secessionist church of Turabdin, which was no longer able to supply them with priests. What is remarkable is that the then Patriarch of Antioch, who had his residence at the Zafaran monastery, is said to have cooperated with the Ottoman Sultan Abdul Hamid II to ensure that the congregation of Afghanistan converted to Islam.
30 years later, another Patriarch allowed himself to be purchased by the parliament of the new Turkish Republic for 5,000 schillings (kurush) a month.[1] His quid pro quo: To deny the genocide Seyfo and show unconditioned loyalty to the Republic. He would also let his subjects in Mardin and Turabdin remain under Turkish sovereignty as the map of the Middle East was redrawn by the great powers France and Great Britain. The Patriarch was Elias III Shaker, who also played a crucial role in making the Lausanne Treaty a Turkish victory.
The story is told by history scientist Jan Beth-Şawoce in a TV program on www. acsatv.com
Jan Beth-Şawoce has access to recently released minutes from the Turkish parliament's early years, which have been classified until recently. As enough time had passed for the classification to be lifted, the documents were published in four volumes. This is what it says in a decision from 1921:[2]

thoma_fj said...

പണ്ട് യാക്കോബായ സഭയെന്ന് ഒരു സഭയില്ല. സഭയുടെ പേര് മലങ്കര സഭയെന്നാണ്. മലങ്കര സഭയിലെ ആളുകളെ കളിയാക്കി വിളിച്ചു വരുന്ന പേര് ആണ് യാക്കോബായക്കാര്‍.അതിനു മുന്‍പ് മലങ്കര സഭയിലെ ആളുകളെ വിളിച്ചിരുന്നത്‌ മലങ്കര നസ്രാണികള്‍ എന്നാണ്. പിന്നീടു യകൊബായ വിശ്വാസം സ്വീകരിച്ചത് കൊണ്ട് യാക്കോബായക്കാര് എന്ന് കളിയാക്കി വിളിച്ചു.(യാക്കോബായക്കാര് എന്ന് കളിയാക്കി വിളിച്ചതിനു പകരമായിട്ട് ആണ് കത്തോലിക്കരെ റോമാകാര്‍ എന്ന് വിളിച്ചത് .) ie ..official name - മലങ്കര സഭ ,വിളിപേര് - യാകൊബയകാര്‍.
വേറെ ഒരു വിധത്തില്‍ പറഞ്ഞാല്‍ patriarchese പക്ഷവും catholica പക്ഷവും യാകൊബയകാര്‍ ആണ്(യാകൊബായ വിശ്വാസത്തില്‍ നടകുനത് കൊണ്ട് ). എന്നാല്‍ patriarchese പക്ഷം മലങ്കര സഭയുടെ കളിയാക് പേര് എടുത്തു അവരുടെ പക്ഷത്തിനു ഇട്ടു ,അങനെയാണ് അവര്‍കെ യാക്കോബായ സഭയെന്ന് പേര് വന്നത് . ശരിക്കും ഇപ്പോഴതെ യാക്കോബായ സഭയെന്ന് അറിയപെടുന്ന സഭയുടെ യഥാര്‍ത്ഥ പേര് malankara syriac orthodox church in india എന്നാണ്. (അതായിത് സിറിയിലുള്ള orthodox സഭയുടെ india -ല്‍ ഉള്ള മലങ്കര എന്ന ഭദ്രാസനം.)
അവര്‍ (പുത്തന്കുരിശു യാകൊബയകാര്‍ ) പറയുന്നു orthodox‌കാര്‍ (പഴയ യാകൊബയകാര്‍) മുടകപെട്ടവര്‍ ആണ് എന്ന്,anthiocian patriarchese ആണ് orthodox കാരെ മുടകിയതന്ന് .അത് കൊണ്ട് ഇനി ഒരു യോജിപിന്നുമില്ല എന്ന് .(ഈ മുടക്ക് തന്നെ ശരിയായിട്ടു ഉള്ളതല്ലല്ലോ, anthiocian -കാരന് മലങ്കരകാരുടെ മേല്‍ എന്ത് അധികാരമാ ഉള്ളത് ,ഇതു ഒരുമാതിരി pak : president ,indian president -നെ മുടകുനത് പോലയൂണ്ട്‌.)എന്ത് തെറ്റ് ചയേതിട്ടു ആണ് orthodox -കാരെ മുടകിയതന്നു ചോദിച്ചാല്‍ പറയും , anthiocian -കാരന്റെ അപ്പനെ (പത്രോസേസ്ലിഹ) സ്വന്തം അപ്പന്‍ ആണ് എന്ന് പറഞ്ഞില്ല പോലും. മലങ്കര സഭയുടെ അപ്പന്‍ തോമാ സ്ലിഹ ആണ്,അല്ലാതെ അയലോകാരന്റെ അപ്പനെ, അപ്പാ എന്ന് വിളിക്കാന്‍ ഞങ്ങളെ കിട്ടില്ല .(ഇവിടെ ആരും സത്യ വിശ്വാസത്തില്‍ നിന്ന് തെറ്റി പോയിട്ടിലല്ലോ ,സത്യ വിശ്വാസത്തില്‍ നിന്ന് തെറ്റി പോവുകയാണെങ്കില്‍ ആണ് മുടകെടത് ,അങ്ങനെ മുടക്കപെട്ടു മലങ്കര സഭയില്‍ നിന്ന് പുറത്തു പോയവര്‍ ആണ് ഇന്നത്തെ മാര്‍ത്തോമ സഭകാര്‍.)
മലങ്കര സഭയില്‍ നിന്ന് പിരിഞ്ഞു anthiocian- കാരുടെ കൂടെ പോകണമെന്ന് പറയുന്നവര ആണ് ഇപ്പോഴതെ യാകൊബയകാര്‍ (പുതന്കുരിശു യാകൊബയകാര്‍ ).അവര്‍ anthiocian- കാരുടെ കൂടെ പോകുനങ്ങില്‍ പോകട്ടെ ..,പകഷെ എന്തിനാ മലങ്കരയിലെ പള്ളികള്‍ കൂടെ anthiocian- കാരന് കൊണ്ട് കൊടുകണം എന്ന് പറയുന്നേ.(വേറെ ഒരു വിധത്തില്‍ പറഞ്ഞാല്‍ ഒരു പള്ളയില്‍ നിന്ന് കുറച്ച്‌ പേര്‍ penthucosthu -കാരുടെ കൂടെ പോവുകയാണെങ്കില്‍ ,അവര്‍ക്ക് പള്ളി കൂടെ കൊണ്ട് പോണം എന്ന് പറഞ്ഞാല്‍ ,അത് ന്യായമാണോ.)

Abraham said...

Exactly which role the Patriarch at the Zafaran monastery played in the conversion is difficult to say, since many records from that time have not yet been translated, says Jan Beth-Şawoce. But he says that it is well known that the rivalry between different factions of the Church meant that they wanted to gain the Sultan's favor, by undermining the other faction. The same approach is practiced even today in our churches, but also among our secular organizations.
Admittedly, the secessionist Patriarch in Turabdin had reunited with the Patriarchate already 50 years earlier, but apparently there was still some rivalry after nearly 500 years of separation. Peace agreements were made five times and were then broken again, writes Bishop Yuhanon Dolabani.
Turabdin seceded in 1364 when the then patriarch Ishmael banished an elderly bishop in Turabdin after an obscure testimony from a monk. Even today, nobody knows what lies the young monk Gewargis had told about the old bishop Baselios of the diocese of Saleh. The result was a trivial issue becoming the cause of a split within the Syrian Orthodox Church, which lasted for 475 years until 1839, when maferyono Ablahad Beth-Kande from Enhil signed a peace agreement with the Patriarch Elias II in the presence of the governor of Omid. Maferyono Ablahad thereby gave up his future patriarchy in Turabdin in favor of the unity of the church. He was assassinated by a Kurd in March 1844.[3] (Maferyono is the second highest office after the patriarch).
In some minorities, the religious leaders have a powerful authority over their people. With power comes of course also a great responsibility for the people's future. When a leader fails to take his responsibility, it can have devastating effects. History bears witness to several such cases, not only among our patriarchs, but also among other nations. So did for example the Jewish Rabbi Chaim Rumkowski in the city of Lodz in Poland during World War II. He let himself be bought by the Nazi Germans and betrayed his people, whose young boys he sent to their deaths. When the Germans no longer needed the services of the Rabbi, they "kicked" him in the butt. Then he got to experience "the ultimate humiliation at the Łódź ghetto - the forced self-annihilation" as it is expressed in a review of the book The poor of Lodz by the newspaper Svenska Dagbladet. The author of the book, Steve Sem-Sandberg, received the prestigious August Prize last fall for his excellent work.
The reviewer Mikael van Reis writes in the newspaper:
Rumkowski himself is the dark prism of this discription - he is both savior and traitor, patriarch and puppet, but eventually a humiliated jester king of hell. He taps into his subjects that this is not a ghetto, but a worker’s town. Work will set them free.
Himmler's intention was of course the opposite. Extermination through work. The Jews would contribute to their own destruction and Rumkowski became the Nazis’ conductor. This forced self-destruction is the ultimate humiliation - it is precisely what Sem-Sandberg points to in his novel.[4]

Abraham said...

Despite the Nazis' extermination attempt, many Jews survived and could eventually settle in their own country. For the Assyrians, it was worse. Our nation was smahed into pieces by the genocide Seyfo and has since not been able to recover.
The role of collaborators, which some of our church leaders have played in history, is not just history. It remains very much today. The difference is that most of us today are aware of what is happening. Therefore, the tug-of-war between those who want to protect this vulnerable, peaceful remnant of a people and those who put their own personal gain in the first place has intensified.
Much of the daily conflicts that we are experiencing in the group today can be traced to this tug-of-war. The more people are enlightened, the more difficult it becomes to successfully divide our people into destruction. Here, our media has a vital role to play in the enlightenment and in the service of truth. But the media, who deliberately chooses to represent the interests of the enemy will undermine their own credibility and lose the confidence of their people. Then it will be difficult to build up trust again. People are not as stupid as some of our media seem to believe.


Augin Kurt
Journalist

rajanthomas said...

Dear Abraham
We MOSc know how Syrian(antiochean)Patriarchs behaved here in Malankara,as to make a colony for them!They (syrian Patriarch never preached gospel in Malankara!They did not ordain any priests in Malankara prior to A.D.1650!Yakkob burdhana during time of presecution of Church particularly, in Roman Empire such as Alexandrea,Antioch,and Constatinaples etc he ordained bishops and priests everywhere! He himself was ordained at Alexandrea by imprisoned Bishops/patriarchs!However none of these places ecxcept Antioch they were under Syrian Patriarch or Antiochean Heirarchy!How can Syrian or Antioch heirarchy claim any superiority over Malankara!
Malankara jacobites or Puthencruz people treat/consider All syrian Patriarchs as sacred/saint people while MOSC bishops/prelates as sinners or unholy!They do not know how Christ's priesthood existing in church!They behave just like Pharisee or Sadduce of Jesus's time and live as those exactly Hypocrites!
About Assyrian genocide and the role played by Syrian Patriarch Elias III are known to everybody who comments in this forum from last year middle!Jacobite Heirarchy in their speeches like to praise Antiochen Throne more than Jesus Christ all the times!They consider Throne in Antioch is more than heaven or Almighty God!
The disunity or Church feud in Malankara was originated from the Greediness of Syrian /Antioch Patriarchs!Jacobites should learn from Coptic/Ethiopea/Erriteria churches how peace and unity prevailing those 3 places and churches with three different church Heads under one umbrella!

Abraham said...

The French intend to use the Assyrians to expanded their borders all the way to Cizre. The Syria-memorandum shows that they want to get hold of this zone as well as Mardin. But thank God Mardin and its surroundings are in our hands today. The religious centers of the Assyrians are located there. Therefore the government must deal with the Assyrians. Or else, the French will use them against us. Currently, all of them living in that area are within our control. As known, the Assyrians are divided into three parts; Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants. The leaders of the Orthodox Assyrians are there (in Mardin, translator’s remark). But the Catholic part is supported by the French. And the Americans are buying the Protestants to their side. If we today by paying money are able to control and keep a small part of them, the Assyrian issue will cease to exist. The land issue will also be resolved and then the matter will soon be forgotten.
It therefore appears clearly from the protocol that the intention was to pay off the Patriarch in order to undermine the demographic and national rights of the Assyrians. He was therefore put on the payroll of the state and received 5,000 schillings per month, which was a lot of money back then. This is evidenced by the picture above. In the first few lines, it reads:"Süryani Kadim patriği Ilyas Efendi tarafından Dahiliye bütçesinden mu'ti şehri beş bin ğurus maaşın ...." This document is dated 1920, suggesting that the patriarch probably began receiving his wages from Turkey already at the time of the Peace Conference in Paris in 1919. At this time the chronology is not fully mapped yet, since all documents in the classified files have not been investigated yet.
But ten years later, when the regime under Mustafa Kemal no longer needed Patriarch Elias III's services, he was expelled from the country in 1931. Degraded and humiliated, he took refuge in India where he died in February 1932. The year after, also the Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate moved from Mardin in Turkey to the French mandate in Syria.
The church's official explanation of the Patriarch’s long journey to India has always been that he wanted to resolve a conflict that existed among the congregation. But this is a pure lie, says Jan Beth-Şawoce. He was expelled and his life was threatened if he ever set foot on Turkish soil again.
Also the story of the Syrian Orthodox Christians in Afghanistan is unknown to most of us. In his memoirs, Sultan Abdul Hamid II writes in 1892 that he is proud to announce good news to the Muslim world. Between 250 000 and 300 000 Christians had recently converted to Islam. It was a triumph for the Sultan, whose empire was on about to disslove.

Neenu said...

the throne of Antioch is absolutely fabricated, ridiculous and absurd. This is a blasphemy which misguides the faithful away from God and stains Orthodoxy.

rajanthomas said...

There are no Throne Jesus promised his disciples on earth!Jesus promised his disciples throne in Heaven /or in his Kingdom! The Practise or claim by Jacobites are totally anti christian anti biblical!Jesus commanded his disciples to go and preach Kingdom of Heaven!AND NOT THRONE IN ANTIOCH OR ROME!The Jocobites are totally mislead/misguided by their Heirarchy as Jesus told that His Kingdom is not on this world!they (jacobites) just want show some immaterial things!If Jesus is Prince of Peace how can they claim their Spiritual leader Patriarch as "Prince Patriarch"( of which Church/nation?) who does not stand and practice,Peace in Church which is Body of Christ? think twice people using common sense!

eldhose said...

HELLO VINCENT,

ONNAM MARTHOMA YA VAZHICHATHU THOMA SLEEHA VAZHICHA METHRAN MARUDA PINGAMIKAL ARUM AYIRUNNILLALO? YARUSHALEM PATHRIYARKIES AYIRUNNA ABDHUL JALLEL BAVA ALLE? APPOL NINGALKU ARABU METHRAN MARE VENAM AVANAVANDE KARYAM KAZHINJAPPOL AVAR KOLLATHAVARAYI ALLE?PINNE ARAB PATRIARCH NA ANGEEKARIKAN PRAYASAMANENKIL NASARAYANAYA YESHU VINAYUM ANGEEKARIKAN PRAYASAMUNDAKUMALLO?

rajanthomas said...

Dear Eldhose
I do not understand what you are commenting/talking here(refer to your comment feb20th)!Let me ask you something(1)How did James cousin brother of Jesus become first Bishop of Jerusalem?(ii)Who ordained St.Paul(Saul)?Jesus commanded his disciples to preach kingdom of heaven!Jesus never gave them authority to rule one another! no one among 12 apostles were great or big(read Luke22:24-30) as Jesus said,just after the passover meal!Jesus kingdom is not of this world! Can you tell me Did Jesus appoint any disciples as Patriarch?
Who is this Jesus of Nazareth? Do you follow him as he commanded to his disciples?I will answer to your comments when I get your response to my questions!

Thomas said...

mr samJi nd others,
answer me.
if self proclaimed IOC is totally an independent entity,if antiocheans have never preached in malankara, how the hell did your self proclaimed IOCs bishops,priests,nd even ur catholica got costumes worn only by those in anthiocean church,frm wer did u get all these traditional church music, which OUR antiochean fathers composed,praying in the gardens of KURKHUMO DAYARO in turkey.why r u considering st.yeldho mor baselios as a saint,he came to look
after us (not self proclaimed IOC), at the command of H H the patriarch of antioch. read true hitory of our parumala thirumeni, nd find out hw hard was his belief nd devotion towards HH antiocheam patriarch.READ TRUE HISTORY OF ST.POLOOSE MOR ATHANASIUS, WHOSE TOMB IS AT TRIKUNATHU SEMINARY,(which u ppl claim ownership) nd find out hw he got named as SATHYAVISWASASAMRAKSHAKAN.
are u ppl saying that parumala tirumeni nd others mentioned were fools, to believe nd devote to the patriarch of antioch....?
KALANKAMILLATHA POUROHITHYATINTE
URAVIDAMAYA ATIOCHYA SIMHANAM NEENAL VAZHATE.
ANTHIOCHYA MALANKARA BANDAN NEENAL VAZHATE.

sam said...

Dear Thomas
Can you give an account of preaching done by Antiochean Patriachs in Malankara?How many people they converted into Christians in Kerala or India?Who initially or originally,Preached Gospel here in Malankara?
Priest hood of Jesus Christ does not belong to Antioch or Some people alone!Mone thomas,first read Bible and learn about Christ!
can you tell me a word from Holy Bible that Jesus told St.Peter to Go and Make Throne in Antioch?
Can you tell me who ordained St,James (the first Bishop of Jeusalem).Thr early Church decisions were taken in Jerusalem and church in Jerusalem gave the letter to St.Paul and Barnabas to deliver them to Antioch( read Acts of Apostle carefully!)Who orained St.Paul? How come St.Paul rebuke st.Peter by face in public?
Monee Thomassee Njangalku nnee parayunna chrithram onnum padikenda aavasyamilla!Karthavu paranja vakkukal dhaaralam mathi!In This Blog you cannot contribute anything constuctive as a Christian but challenging people for what? Majinakkare kabaradangiya Elias III Bava,Mardeen(Thurki)vittu ivide vannathu Enthinananenuu ulla chrithram sathyam mon poyi adhyam padikkuka allenkil vayikkuka!Pinne SATHYA VISWASAM illatham(sathyathe krooshil tharachu nadakkunna yakkobakkar) ningalude SATHYAVISWASAM NEE thanne Vayichu swargarahayathil ethiyal mathi!

Samji said...

@Thomas
How did liturgy originate in Church?The Liturgy did not originate in Antioch!You Must learn the Elementry Christianity before making your fabricated statement here? Why did Throne in Antioch move to Damascus in Syria?In Antioch,St.Paul(Saul)and Barnabas preached more than a year and taught them Christ and liturgy! After that, the followers of Christ were known as Christians! read thorughly acts of Apostles! not because of preaching by St.Peter alone!Do not be proud of your Antiochean Liturgy itself!Jesus Christ is for all nations and for everybody!the Liturgy that you follow is not sole property of Antioch!Robes or vestments,why you people dress like eropeans weering! shirt,pants.neck tie and coat/suit!Why do you use english for communication! Paper,and priting technology belong/originate in China!

Thomas said...

dear sam so u agree u copied the costumes from antioch, maybe wen anticean fathers visted india, or ur fathers visited antioch. ok. wat abt the prayers, hw did u get the utter same prayers like the antiocean church, above all, nikhya VISWASAPRAMANAM, nd all other koodasa kramams, sushrusha kramams,
ditto copy of music. u cant copy all these huge amount of data frm jst a look or a small talk, but only by years of practice.these prayers nd music were not authored nd composed in our nation, it was brought to us by someone.thomasleeha did not teach us all these music, but someone else.

sam said...

Dear Thomas
You do not actually follow the Church History or tradtions of Malankara Christians/ Nazranis! It is not MoSC who follw your Antioch tradition!You Just believe Christianity in India is brought by Antioch!It is not!Even before antiochean relation came in Malankara,we had liturgy and Nicene Creed in use and Sacrements order books!When antiocheans came here they Changed MOSc liturgy from East syriac to west syriac!MOTV had comments about malankara Orthodox liturgy in 2010! You May go back and read that!Also rememer during the time of portughese(latin) Arch Bishop of Menezis (Goa)reign(A.D.1600-1650) he destroyed all books of Liturgies belonging to MOSC by using his Power and support from Portugal Colony in soth India.As a Malankara christian you don't know what is Coonan cross Oath or How Latin Christianity came in Malankara!Also refer Mavelikkara Padiyola(A.D. 1788 during the time of MathomaVI or Mar Divanasius) in MOSC history about W.syriac(antiochean liturgy and robes/vestments) Therefore you sould not talk about more about liturgy or vestments!

thoma_fj said...

നിങ്ങള്‍ (puthencurish yakobakar) പറയുന്നു, malankara - antiochia ബന്ധം ഒന്നാം നുറ്റാണ്ട് മുതല്കെ ഊണ്ടായിരുന്നു വെന്ന്.അങ്ങനെയെകില്‍ , puthenkuttu (പുതിയ സുറിയനികാര്‍ -വെസ്റ്റ് സുറിയാനി) എന്ന വിളിപേര് malankara -ke എങ്ങനെ വരും.

"(puthenkuttu -പുതിയ സുറിയനികാര്‍ (വെസ്റ്റ്),pazyakuttu -പഴയ സുറിയനികാര്‍(ഈസ്റ്റ്‌))".

malankara - antiochia ബന്ധം പണ്ട് മുതല്കെ ഊണ്ടായിരുന്നുവെങ്കില്‍ puthenkuttu(പുതിയ സുറിയനികാര്‍) എന്ന പേര് malankara -കെ വരില്ലായിരുന്നു അതിനു പകരം pazyakuttu (പഴയ സുറിയനികാര്‍) എന്നാവും വരിക.ഇതില്‍ നിന്നും വക്തമലെ ,16-അം നുറ്റാണ്ട് ഇനു ശേഷം ആണ് മലങ്കര സഭ പുതിയ സുറിയാനി (വെസ്റ്റ് സുറിയാനി-antiochia സുറിയാനി) സ്വീകരികുനത് എന്നും, malankara - antiochia ബന്ധം 16 -അം നുറ്റാണ്ട് ഇനു ശേഷം ആണ് തുടങ്ങുനത് എന്നും.
16 -അം നുറ്റാണ്ട് വരെ malankara - persian ബന്ധം ആണ് നിലനിന്നിരുനത് ,ആയതിന്റെ ഒരു തെളിവ് ആണല്ലോ ഇന്നു നാം കാണുന്ന persian കുരിശുകള്‍. 16 -അം നുറ്റാണ്ട് ഇല്‍ വന്ന portuguese -കാര്‍ മലങ്കര സഭയെ ഏതുവിധയെനെയും pope -നു കിഴീടകാന്‍ നോകുകയായിരുന്നല്ലോ,അതിനുവേണ്ടി അവര്‍ malankara - persian ബന്ധം തടഞ്ഞു.ഉദയംപേരൂര്‍ സുന്നഹദോസ് 1599 -ല്‍ കൂടി അന്ന് വരെ malankara -കെ ഉണ്ടായിരുന്ന സകല orthodox പാരബര്യങ്ങളും നിര്‍തലാകി,(ഉദയംപേരൂര്‍ സുന്നഹദോസില്‍ വക്തമആയിട്ടു പറയുന്നുണ്ട് ,"ഇനി മുതല്‍ കുര്‍ബാനയില്‍ nestorian (persian) patriarchese -ന്റെ പേര് ഓര്‍ക്കെരുത് " എന്ന്‌ .അതില്‍ നിന്നും മനസിലാകുമല്ലോ malankara -persian ബന്ധം ആണ് അന്ന് വരെ നിലനിന്നിരുനത് എന്ന്‌.) പിന്നിട് 1653-ല്‍ കുരിശു (കൂനന്‍) സത്യതിലൂടെ കത്തോലിക ബന്ധം ഉപേഷിച്ച് വീണ്ടും orthodox -പാരബര്യതിലേക്കെ തിരിച്ചു വന്നു.
orthodox -പാരബര്യതിലേക്കെ മലങ്കര സഭയെ തിരിച്ചു വരുവാന്‍ സഹായിക്കുവാന്‍,അന്ന് orthodox -പാരബര്യത്തില്‍ ഉണ്ടായിരുന്ന സഭകള്‍കെ കത്തുകള്‍ അയച്ചു . ആയതിന്‍ പ്രകാരമാണല്ലോ orthodox -പാരബര്യത്തില്ലുള്ള antiochia -യന്‍ പിതകന്മാര്‍ ഇവിടെ വന്നത് .അവര്‍ (AOC ) മലങ്കര സഭയെ ആത്മികതയില്‍ സഹായിച്ചു .എന്നാല്‍ പിന്നീടു വന്നവര്‍ മലങ്കര സഭയെ കിഴീടകാന്‍ നോക്കി ,അതിനെയാണ് മലങ്കര സഭ എതിര്‍ത്തതു .
അങ്ങനെ മലങ്കര സഭയെ സഹായിക്കുവാന്‍ വേണ്ടി വളരെ കഷ്ടതകള്‍ സഹിച്ച്‌ ഇവിടെ വന്ന പിതാവ് ആണല്ലോ yeldho bava (malankara -കു വേണ്ടി കഷ്ടപാട്‌ സഹിച്ചതു കൊണ്ട് ആണ് മലങ്കര സഭ yeldho ബാവയെ വിശുധനായിട്ട്‌ പ്രക്യാപിച്ചത്. yeldho bava -ഉം ,പരുമല തിരുമേനിയും മലങ്കര സഭ 1947 -ല്‍ വിശുധരായിട്ടു പ്രക്യാപിച്ചു.എന്നാല്‍ aoc 1987 -ല്‍ ആണ് പരുമല തിരുമേനിയെ വിശുദ്ധന്‍ ആയിട്ടു പ്രക്യാപികുനത് ).
മലങ്കര സഭയുടെ ,16 -അം നുറ്റാണ്ട് ഇല്‍ വെച്ച് തകര്‍ന്നു പോയ orthodox വിശ്വാസത്തില്‍കെ തിരിച്ചു വരുവാന്‍ antiochia സഭ സഹായിച്ചു.അങ്ങനെയാണ് antiochia സഭയുടെ പാരബര്യത്തില്ലുള്ള ആത്മിക കാര്യങ്ങള്‍ ഇവിടെ വന്നത് . ആത്മികതയില്‍ സഹായിച്ചു എന്ന്‌ വെച്ച് antiochian -കാര്‍കെ ല്വകികതയില്‍ കിഴടങ്ങി നില്കണം എന്നുണ്ടോ? ,salmoosakal പ്രകാരം orthodox വിശ്വാസത്തില്‍ നിന്ന് വ്യതിചലിക്കില്ല എന്നാണ് പറഞ്ഞിരികുന്നത് .(അതായത് മറ്റു വിശ്വാസത്തില്‍കെ protastant ,കത്തോലിക ,penthucosthu ,തുടങ്ങിയ വിശ്വാസത്തില്‍കെ പോകില്ല എന്നാണ് പറഞ്ഞിരികുന്നത് .) അല്ലാതെ antiochia -കു കിഴടങ്ങി നില്‍കാം എന്നല്ല .
അച്ചന്മാരുടെ വേഷം,തിരുമേനിമാര്‍ റബചെന്മാര്‍ തലയില്‍ ഇടുന്ന മസ്പ്ന്സ ,ഇവയൊകെ antiochia - malankara തമ്മില്‍ വ്യത്യാസം ഉണ്ട് .ഒരു ഏകദേശ സാമ്യം മാത്രമേ ഉള്ളു aoc ആയിട്ട്‌ . aoc -മായിട്ട് മാത്രമല്ല ,എല്ലാ orthodox സഭകള്മായിട്ടും സാമ്യം ഉണ്ട് . കാരണം orthodox രീതയിലുള്ള എല്ലാ സഭകളിലെയും വേഷവിധാനങ്ങള്‍ ഒന്ന് തന്നെയാണ് ,അല്ലാതെ antiochia -ക്കാര്‍ക്ക് മാത്രമല്ല ഈ വേഷം .

thoma_fj said...

പണ്ട് മുതല്കെ antiochian patriarchese -ല്‍ നിന്നാ kyeveppu എന്ന് പറയുന്നത് തെറ്റാണ്. ആദ്യമായിട്ട് anti :patr :-ല്‍ നിന്ന്‌ മെത്രാന്‍ സ്ഥാനം എല്കുനത് 1842 -ല്‍ അതാന്യോസ്(നവികരണ മെത്രാന്‍ ) ആണ് .മാര്‍ത്തോമ-5 ,മാര്‍:6 ,മാര്‍:7,മാര്‍:8,മാര്‍:9, എന്നിവര്‍ തങ്ങളുടെ മുന്‍ഗാമികളില്‍ നിന്ന്‌ ആണ് മെത്രാന്‍ സ്ഥാനം ഏറ്റത്. pulikotil dionysius മെത്രാന്‍ സ്ഥാനം ഏറ്റത് തോഴ്യുര്‍ സഭയില്‍ നിന്നാണ് .(മലങ്കര സഭയില്‍ ആദ്യം വയ്ടികരെ വാഴികുനത്‌ മാര്‍ത്തോമ സ്ലെഹായാണ് ,അതായതു മലങ്കര സഭ്കെ ആദ്യതെ kyevappu കിട്ടയതു മാര്‍ത്തോമ സ്ലെഹായില്‍ നിന്നും ആണ് ,അല്ലാതെ anthiocha -ല്‍ നിന്നും അല്ല )
ഇവന്മാര് (aoc ) പറയുന്നു മലങ്കര സഭയിലുള്ള എല്ലാം ,ശീമയില്‍ നിന്നു കൊണ്ടുവന്നത് ആണെന്നു.--മിന്നു കെട്ടുന്ന പാരബര്യo ,ചട്ടയും മുണ്ടും , മാര്‍ഗം കളി , പരിചമുട്ടു കളി, തുടങ്ങിയവയും,കുപ്പായം തയിപ്പികാന്‍ ഉള്ള കാശു ,പള്ളി പണിയുവാന്‍ ഉള്ള കാശു ,തുടങ്ങിയവയും,ശീമയില്‍ നിന്നു കൊണ്ടുവന്നത് ആണോ.. ? അല്ലല്ലോ.
ഇവരു (aoc ) പറയുന്നു bishops ,priests വേഷങ്ങള്‍ തിരിച്ചു വേണമെന്ന് --.ഏതൊരു വലിയ മണ്ടത്തരമാ ഇവന്മാര് പറയുന്നേ ,അതെ മണ്ടതരത്തില്‍ മറുപടി പറയുകയാണകില്‍,--ആദ്യം മലങ്കര പാരബര്യത്തില്‍ ഉള്ള ചട്ടയും മുണ്ടും,മാര്‍ഗം കളി , തുടങ്ങിയവ ഇങ്ങോട്ടു തിരിച്ചുതാ ,എന്നിട്ട് നിങള്‍ പോയി antiochian ആളുകളുടെ രീതയില്‍ ഉള്ള വേഷവും ധരിച്ചു നടക്ക്‌...ok
നിങ്ങള്‍കെ എല്ലാം ശീമയില്‍ നിന്നു വേണമെങ്ങില്‍ ,എന്തിനാ തോമസ്‌ പ്രദമന്‍ തുടങ്ങിയ നാട്ടു മെത്രാന്മാരെ ഇവിടെ വെച്ചിരികുനത് .അവരെ മാറ്റി പകരം ശീമയില്‍ നിന്നു ഉള്ളവരെ പിടിച്ചു catholica -യും ,മെത്രാന്മാരും ആകി അങ്ങ് ഭരിച്ചാല്‍ പോരെ ...//ഇനിമുതല്‍ സ്വന്തം ജാതയില്‍ നിന്നു മെത്രാന്മാരെ വാഴികുന്നില്ല .പകരം aoc bishops -മാര്‍ ഇവിടെ വന്നു നിങ്ങളെ ഭരികുകയാനെകില്‍ ,നിങ്ങള്‍ സമ്മതികുമോ അവരെ അനുസരികുവാന്‍ ?//
നിങ്ങള്‍ പറയുന്നു antiochia -കാര്‍ ആണ് മലങ്കരയില്‍ സുവിശേഷം അറയിച്ചതെന്നു,അങ്ങനെയെകില്‍ antiochia -കാരുടെ സ്വന്തം ആടുകള്‍ ആണല്ലോ മലങ്കര മക്കള്‍ .അങ്ങനെ സ്വന്തം ആടുകള്‍ ആണയെങ്കില്‍ -,സ്വന്തം ആടുകള്‍ തമ്മില്‍ തലതലി ചാകുനത് സ്വന്തം ഇടയന്‍ നോകി നില്‍ക്കുമോ.നമ്മള്‍ തമ്മില്‍ ഉള്ള ഇ വഴക്കെ നമ്മളെ മാത്രമേ affect ചെയുക ഉള്ളു .അല്ലാതെ മറ്റു ജാതികള്കെ (antiochia ,കാത്തോലിക തുടങ്ങിയ ) ഇതു ഒരു പ്രശ്നം അല്ല .മലങ്കര സഭ മുഴുവനായും antiochia -കു കിഴീടങ്ങുകയില്ല എന്ന് കണ്ടപ്പോള്‍ ആണ് ,മലങ്കര സഭയെ മുറിച്ചു ഭരിക്കാന്‍ നോകുനത് .ആദ്യം ഒരു കാരിയം മനസിലാകെ catholica,patriarchese,pope ഇവ മുന്നും തുലിയ സ്ഥാനങ്ങല്‍ ആണ്. ഇനി അടുത്ത തലമുറയെലെക്കും ഈ വഴക്കെ പകര്‍ന്നു കൊടുക്കാതെ ,ഈ തലമുറയില്‍ തനെ ഈ പ്രശനം solve ചെയാന്‍ നോക്ക്.

thoma_fj said...

മലങ്കര സഭയില്‍ നിന്ന്‌ ,മലങ്കര സഭാ അറിയാതെ 4 അച്ചന്മാര്‍ വിദേശത്ത് പോയി മെത്രാന്‍മാരായിട്ടു തിരിച്ചു വന്നു .അതില്‍ ഒരുവനായ തോമസ്‌ പ്രദമന്‍- "മലങ്കര സഭയുടെ thrikunathu seminaryil ഇരിക്കുന്ന അന്നെതെ angmali ഭ്ദ്രസ്നാധിപന്‍ അവിടെ നിന്നു മാറണമെന്നും താനാണ്‌ angmali ഭ്ദ്രസ്നാധിപന്‍ എന്ന് പറഞ്ഞു നടന്നു "-അത് ന്യായമായ കാര്യമാണോ.original തിരുമേനി thirkunathu ഇരികുമ്പോള്‍ ,വഴിയെ പോയ ഒരുത്തന്‍ മെത്രാന്‍ ആയി വന്നിട്ട് ,originally അവിടെ ഇരിക്കുന്ന തിരുമെനിയോടെ ഇറങ്ങാന്‍ പറഞ്ഞാല്‍ ,നടകുമോ. എന്നാല്‍ നേരായ വഴിയെ (നീതി ന്യായ വ്യവസ്ഥയില്‍ കൂടി ) ആണോ ഇറെക്കാന്‍ നോകിയത് , അല്ല .പകരം ഗുണ്ടകളെ ഉപയോഗിച്ച് അല്ലെ ഇറെക്കാന്‍ നോകിയത് .ഇപ്പോല്‍ ഉണ്ടായ (70s നെ ശേഷം ) അടി മുഴുവന്‍ തോമസ്‌ പ്രദമന്റെ സ്ഥാനത്തിനും സ്വാര്‍ത്ഥലഭാതിനും വേണ്ടിയാണു എന്ന് പറഞ്ഞാല്‍ നിഷേധിക്കാന്‍ പറ്റുമോ .

Samji said...

Dear Thomas
You said that Mar Yeldho Baselios came with Kalpana from antioch patriarch,can you give which patriarch details of Kalpana etc?
Yeldho Mar Bsaelios used two titles at the same time:Maphrian/Catholicose!Only historians of Jacobite church claims that Yeldho Mar Baselios was representative from Antiochean/syrian Patriach!They were originally from Persia(ninave) refer Kadamattom church documents of 1686 A.D.!It was Mar Ivanios who came with Yeldho Mar Baselios who started the connection of antioch with Malankara!This Mar Ivanios is the one who made malankara Church history into three:- A.D.52 upto A.D.1498(vasco D'Gama) antiochEraWhich totally false/baseless(ii)A.D.1498 to A.D.1650 Portughese /Latin Era (III)A.D.1665 onwards New Era Of Antioch!He used Pakalomattam family bishops to spread his untrue theory or claim in malankara!The Sacrements order in Malankara prior to this 1665 was especially,ThailaKoodasha and Pattam Koda(ordination of Priests) coptic alexandrean/ tradition!
The two people who came with Yeldho Mar baselios were from Persia(ninave)refer record of Kadamattom Church!However the travelling expenses of these 3(Yeldho Mar Baselios and other two were born by church in Malankara as they were brought here by Armenian Traders!)Mar Sakralla mafrian came with a team of priests and deacons in 1751A.D. and they were trying to make everything in W.syriac rite in Malankara but only in the region of Kochi(Kochi Pravishya)Until Marthoma V Malankara followed East Syriac rite!During Mathoma VI the agreement of Mavelikara Padiyola came in force!
in short Malankara did not borrow/or copy anything from Antioch but Antioch was insisting Malankara to follow Antioch rite in everything/all respect so that malankara became a colony for them like India as British colony!
In short Malankara Church did not have any relation or connection with Antioch prior to A.D.1655.

Samji said...

Dear Thomas
You May plese refer Thubden(DIPTYCHS)#5 in our Holy Qurbana! for the departed spirutual fathers ,Doctors(malpan)or Teachers, of the church all who are mentioned there do not belong to Antioch!some belong chuches of to Alexandrea,Rome etc etc! why their names are there?From this it is clear Liturgy did not come from Antioch alone!

Innocent said...

All liturgy, costumes, language, sound and equipment every thing came from Antioch. First consignment brought by our Patriachs in 36AD, just after 3 years after Christ went. Latest consignment came during the Manjinikara Perunal this year. I am really fed up with our church people. I have been telling them to Patent all these so that no one else other than our people can use these costumes. Particulary the Metran Kakshi. Reeth is OK because they also give importance to ST.Peter. Once we get the Patent I want to see what you all will be wearing and what you will be using in your church. Only Malayalam No syriac Haha Haha Hahahahahaha

What are we talking about unity. That is the word used in a coward's dictionary. WE are brave. WE hate it. Antiochyaye maranallum, sorry Ammaye Maranallum Antiochyaye Marakoola

Last time unity we lost every thing. This time impossible, we will not allow it. Even if we have to unite with non-cast that is fine but with Metrakakshi IMPOSSIBLE

Abraham said...

Few facts about the so called antiochian tradition.Only in the first half of the fifth century the Antiochian church adopted the anophora of Jrusalem known under the name of St.James.In the 4th and 5th centuries the liturgical language of Jrusalem and Antioch was Greek.In the time of the Bizentine Emperor Justin (AD 518-527)he expelled the non-Calcadonians from antioch anf they took refuge in syriac speaking Mesopotomia on the Roman/Persian border(modern East syria,Iraq,and south east turkey).Gradually the antiochian liturgy rites were translated to syriac and new elements such as syriac hyms were intruduced with it.Therefore one should know that the Malankara church was using East syrian liturgy from the 3rd century onwards,whereas at that time the antiochian syriac liturgy was not even taken place.
In 1923 Vattaseril Thirumeni went to Turkey for peace talk with Patriarch Elias III. Why he has not bothered to listen to him.Now the Patriarch group says Elias III came to India in 1931 for resolving the conflict that existed among the church. But it is a pure lie.He was expelled and his life was in danger if ever set foot on Turkish soil.So he came to into as a refuge.Now the Jacobites making money in his name as a saint.
Let me ask a question, why the syrian Metropolitan came to India and stayed here long years.They don't have any congregation to serve their laymen in their Diocese.If they want to preach of teach it should be for few months.From where they got the name such as Athanasios,Deevannasios,Dioscoros,Dionysius, Etc, These are all Greek names. Do you know the song Paulose Shleeha Dhanyium...was written by Vattaseril Thirumeni.The intension of the fanatic leaders of Jacobite church in kerala is to misguide the poor laymen in the name of Antioch.Even if the Patriarch says,they will not listen for unity.They want position and money from the laymen by hook or crook.
God bless Malankara church

Abraham Mattackal John

Thomas said...

hehehehehehe....why r u ppl still follwing those so called insisted rites...????
shed them off n write down yor own prayers ncompose yor own music...!!!
n leave us alone
hehehehe..
u r funny dear...!!!

Abraham said...

Few facts about the so called antiochian tradition.Only in the first half of the fifth century the antiochian church adopted the anophora of Jerusalem known under the name of St. James .In the 4th and 5th centuries the liturgical language of Jerusalem and Antioch was Greek.In the time of the Bizentine Emperor Justin (AD518-527)he expelled the non calcadonians from Antioch and they took refuge in syriac speaking Mesopotomia on the Roman/Persian border(modern East Syria,Iraq,and south east Turkey).Gradually the antiochian liturgy rites were translated to syriac and new elements such as syriac hyms were introduced with it.Therefore one should know that the Malankara Church was using East Syrian liturgy from the 3rd century onwards whereas at that time the antiochian syriac liturgy was not even taken place.
In 1923 Vattaseril Thirumeni went to Turkey for peace talk with Elias III .Why he has not bothered to listen to him.Now the Patriarch group says Elias III came to India in 1931 for resolving the conflict that existed among the church.But it is a pure lie.He was expelled and his life was in danger if he ever set foot on Turkish soil.Therefor he came to India as a refuge.Now the Jacobites made him a saint and making money in his name.Even Thomas I ‘s mother got revelation that he was even standing with Jesus Christ.What a great story.
Let me ask a question,why the Syrian Metropolitans came to India and stayed long years.They don’t have any congregation to serve their laymen in their Diocese.If they want to preach or teach it should be only for few months.From where they got the names such as Athanasios,Deevannsasios,Dioscoros,Dionysius etc,.These are all Geek names.Do you know the song “Paulose Shleeha Dhannyium….” was written by our Vattaseril Thirumeni.Recently one of my nephew got married from Kothamangalam a girl from Jacobite church.When I met her I asked about the church disputes in their area.She replied that the problem was created by Vattaseil Thirumeni who was not an educated man.The children are taught in such a way.When I told her that he was the Principal of M.D School and M.D Seminary she realized her fault.
The intension of the fanatic leaders of Jacobite Church in Kerala is to misguide the poor laymen in the name of Antioch.Even if the Patriarch says,they will not listen for unity.They want position and money from the laymen by hook or crook.My humble request to the Jacobite brothers is to realize their leaders intension .
May God bless Malankara Church.
Abraham Mattackal John

Abraham said...

Few facts about the so called antiochian tradition.Only in the first half of the fifth century the antiochian church adopted the anophora of Jerusalem known under the name of St. James .In the 4th and 5th centuries the liturgical language of Jerusalem and Antioch was Greek.In the time of the Bizentine Emperor Justin (AD518-527)he expelled the non calcadonians from Antioch and they took refuge in syriac speaking Mesopotomia on the Roman/Persian border(modern East Syria,Iraq,and south east Turkey).Gradually the antiochian liturgy rites were translated to syriac and new elements such as syriac hyms were introduced with it.Therefore one should know that the Malankara Church was using East Syrian liturgy from the 3rd century onwards whereas at that time the antiochian syriac liturgy was not even taken place.
In 1923 Vattaseril Thirumeni went to Turkey for peace talk with Elias III .Why he has not bothered to listen to him.Now the Patriarch group says Elias III came to India in 1931 for resolving the conflict that existed among the church.But it is a pure lie.He was expelled and his life was in danger if he ever set foot on Turkish soil.Therefor he came to India as a refuge.Now the Jacobites made him a saint and making money in his name.Even Thomas I ‘s mother got revelation that he was even standing with Jesus Christ.What a great story.

Abraham said...

Let me ask a question,why the Syrian Metropolitans came to India and stayed long years.They don’t have any congregation to serve their laymen in their Diocese.If they want to preach or teach it should be only for few months.From where they got the names such as Athanasios,Deevannsasios,Dioscoros,Dionysius etc,.These are all Geek names.Do you know the song “Paulose Shleeha Dhannyium….” was written by our Vattaseril Thirumeni.Recently one of my nephew got married from Kothamangalam a girl from Jacobite church.When I met her I asked about the church disputes in their area.She replied that the problem was created by Vattaseil Thirumeni who was not an educated man.The children are taught in such a way.When I told her that he was the Principal of M.D School and M.D Seminary she realized her fault.
The intension of the fanatic leaders of Jacobite Church in Kerala is to misguide the poor laymen in the name of Antioch.Even if the Patriarch says,they will not listen for unity.They want position and money from the laymen by hook or crook.My humble request to the Jacobite brothers is to realize their leaders intension .
May God bless Malankara Church.
Abraham Mattackal John

vincent said...

Dear Thomas
Mone Thomaskutty,nee dharichirikkunna pantum shirtum oorikkalanjittu,nee mudum(dhothiyum) adiyil kaupeenavum pinne chattauduppum allenkil vettu baniyanum dharichu nadakkuka!Enthinu vidhesikalude vasthradharanm pinthudarunnu!Ganghijiyepole nadannalum mathi!
Liturgy is not sole antiochean patent right!don't forget that!

Joshy said...

Actually there are many points to be disagreed with Johnachan's writings. I just want to emphasis that for Malankara Patriarch of Antioch is not like the head of commonwealth for Australians or Canadians, but is like a head of the state for Briton. The king England is the real ruler for England, Wales and Northern Ireland the way patriarch of Antioch is the supre, real and actual head of Malanakar Sabha. Onece MOSC undersatnd the meaning of what is a head of the established church like the Malankara sabha, then all the rubbish "unity" discussion will go into oblivion.

Ravi George said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ravi George said...

Abraham Mattackal John raised an important valid question. Why did the Patriarchs of Antioch who were supposed to govern their own faithful lived here for long? if they had so much affection and concern about Malankara why have they refused anyone from India to become a patriarch. (They have racial bias when they prohibited a part of their own church members to become its head on the basis of RACE.)

Ravi George said...

I am against people who want to make peace somehow and at any means. This will only make matters even worse later.

The Church was united QUICKLY (two times) soon after the earlier court verdicts. So many people were diappointed that this time (1995 Supre Court order) it did not happen, even after 15 years... BUT WHY?

A QUICK merger would have again made matters even worse which would only have led to another split and more cases. BUT GOD REIGNS.

We'll see the enemies of UNITY OF CHRIST'S body put to shame before the actual unity takes place. Even traces of rebellion will also be eliminated by the power of God. SABHA IS HIS BRIDE, our faith is that the Husband Christ will make HIS Bride PURE & PERFECT.

Let us NOT compromise on the principles of Orthodoxy and independence which other Orthodox Churches have. Why should we bring here HH Patriarch from Antioch for acepting HH's terms of surrender? This is again take us a century bac . WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT FUTURE ORTHODOXY IN INDIA. This is more imprtant than making peace NOW at any cost. If we do that now, we'll only pospone our struggles and leave our generations to fight in the future. The enemies of Peace with Unity are dying and we'll have PEACE with UNITY and DIGNITY for all, irrespective of camps.

The so called Samadhanasamithy which is trying to intervene unsuccessfuly has NO role here. They should never be entertained in any forum of the Church.

vincent said...

Dear Joshy
How Come Patriarch of Antioch is more Powerful and supreme in Malankara Church?Has any of Antiochean Patriarch preach Christianity in India?Has they built any church in Malankara?or did they preach here and died for Jesus Christ?Jesus Christ Never appointed any supreme leader among his apostles!Church of Antioch is not mother church or it is not the place Christianity had begun or started!Make sensible comments based on scriptures or tradition!Antiochean had no prior record in Malankara church history before 1653 A.D.Did Antiochean come here to free/liberate us from any foreign churches slavery?

vincent said...

Dear Joshy
How Come Patriarch of Antioch is more Powerful and supreme in Malankara Church?Has any of Antiochean Patriarch preach Christianity in India?Has they built any church in Malankara?or did they preach here and died for Jesus Christ?Jesus Christ Never appointed any supreme leader among his apostles!Church of Antioch is not mother church or it is not the place Christianity had begun or started!Make sensible comments based on scriptures or tradition!Antiochean had no prior record in Malankara church history before 1653 A.D.Did Antiochean come here to free/liberate us from any foreign churches slavery?

sam said...

Dear All
Antioch patriarch is not supreme among oriental orthodox churches!As the way some people say something without proper understanding of Early Church,history of early church and traditions in 1st and 2nd centuary!
In early Church there were overseer,elders and deacons in spiritual/clergy level!Overseer is currently called episcopa/Bishop and elders were known as prebyters/kassisso(priests)Alexandrean church in early centuaries followed a system of making Episcopa/bishop by 12 priests!It is the Epistles of St.Paul,which give us the church heirarchy system in early church!So There were no high priest like Patriarch or Pope or Catholicose! this came in practise later by 4th or 5th centuary only.Let me put this way the technolgy and road,air,sea transport,posts and telecommunications in India we got from British people!Even the current democratic parliement system is also from Britain!
Likewise in Malankara the Heirachy was known as Jathikku Karthavyan or Achidiocean(arkidiakion)and malankara had all sacrements and liturgy or prayers! We were not living without priesthood or sacrements! When Portughese people came in They wanted everything in Latin Rite! We refused and we had to fight against them!If Malankara Was under Roman empire in early centuries we could have followed the system of heirarchy like Antioch,Alexandrea or Constantinaples or Byzantian tradition!However through the Antiochean contact by 18th centuary we followed their system of liturgy! This does not mean that Malankara borrowed everything from Antioch!The europeans brought here all western protastant churches and R/Catholic and L/Catholic ritesof Catholic church in Malankara!
British /European came in India initially for trade later become rulers of the country!Like wise Antiochean Bishops came here to help us to fight mainly against the church missionary society/Anglican in malankara! But later own they become rulers or used to behave like Foreign Dictators/ Monarchs who were looking for Power and money from Malankara!Peter III Bava came here A.D.1872 at our own expense,before coming here he went to London at our own expenses for to study the situation in Malankara!after coming here He made or divided the church into 7 diocese and made /appointed bishops for getting "Resheesa" from here to Antioch! Look at St.Paul he preached everywhere gospel at his own sweat or expnses! we did not object any of their demands! During Abdulla Bava's time the problem in Malankara statrted because of his Greediness!actually he came here in Malankara for making money and luxururies like Gold and silver for his own Glory in Mardeen!If You read St.Peter 1epistle 5:2-3,you will understand what St.Peter had written or instructed the early elders of Church!This H.H. Abdulla was acting against the apostolic teachings and traditions!It was during his tenure all issue of Samudaya Case started!
Now the problem,during Yakkob III regime,he was trying to make Malankara under his apostolic throne and he wanted MOSC catholicate to stay as a Maphrian under him,and he wanted direct control over all overseas churches of Malankara(the gulf region,America,singapore etc)>when the synod amd Catholicate in Malankara refused to do so he emerged with his infamous bull and subsequent Ex-communication of Malankara catholicate and synod uncanonically!He was acting against the peace accord of 1958!

St.Thomas preached gospel in india or Persia not because of St.Peter!St.Peter was an apostle like St.Thomas!All apostles of Jesus Christ had the same authority and rank/position!Jesus did not make St.Peter as head of apostles or head of his earthly church!

sam said...

Dear All (continuation)
Whatever split/disunity to be happened took place in Malankara Church!However as Christians we must look forward for peace and reconciliation!This does not mean that Antioch Patriarch is going to be the supremehead! He is going to be honoured/respected as per MOSC church constituition!It is not MOSC who behaved uncannonically in the past!Whatever mistakes happened in the past it happened like as due to the mistake of carpenter and as well as wood! However since we are in millenium we must be able to forgive each other or to end our centuary long dispute!St.Paul and st.Barnabas in early church they seperated once,but later they were all together in the mission of Church! Likewise MOSC and Jacobites and H.H. Bava of Antioch all together reconcile and peace ,unity should be there in Christ's church!

mohanmathew said...

Yes, even our good Lord is not in a hurry to unify HIS Church. BUT LORD HATES ANYONE WHO CUT OR DIVIDE HIS Church. The Bible says God hates anyone who makes quarrel among brothers...

1. NEVER CAUSE DIVISION IN CHURCH

2. As Christians we should ONLY aim to unify the Church and work towrds that.

3. IT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT who helps in unification. So I belive anyone works against unification, sin agiainst HOLY SPIRIT.

4. UHIFICATION PROCES is SLOW, hence it may take a long time. That is why we are aksed to pray for strength to suffer for long.

5. NEVER ever devaite from our values and principles. God will make our unification dream fruitful

Vayaliparamban said...

In 1915 Elias III became the Patriarch. Since 1915 until 1932 he was preying for piece in Malankara.
After 11 years since assuming office, there was no sight of initiation of peace in the church from the part of the Patriarch, in 1926 Vattasseril Thirumeni visited Mardin since Thirumeni was persuaded by Chathiyan Panicker to go for a visit and negotiate for peace. During this visit Elias III did use his feet towards piece by kicking Vattasseril Thirumeni a few times. Thirumeni did confess this to none other than Panicker Metran and he felt, there is no point in continuing in this church and went and embraced the Catholic faith. He is today in the process of becoming a Saint.
In 1932 when his own people started doubting the credentials of Elias III, for suppressing the genocide incident, he wanted a place for hiding. He cannot go to any other place in the world because any where he goes he will find his own people (Syrian (Arabi) Christians) who were aware of the genocide.
But in Malankara he knew it is a different breed who does not know the difference between Mother & faith and he will be in heaven and landed here. He lived in heavenly comfort for 11 months until he received the curse back which he gave to Thengutharayil Geevarghese Corepiscopa and passed away. Today Elias III is a saintly father who came to Malankara to establish peace.
As far as I see it, our church had a constitution even before we as a Nation started the Quit India Movement in 1942. That was the vision of our forefathers. Whatever rights we have given to the Patriarch still stands.
My father used to say it was only because of the Catholicate and the 1934 constitution we had this entire problem in the church.
Unfortunately he was not there to see the emergence of the Puthencruz duplicate Catholicos, their 2002 constitution and the latest Reeth Catholicos, which only reveals all who were against the Catholicate and the 1934 constitution was only due to their vested interest. If you want real peace learn the history of the church and also the faith of the church, the whole problem will be over.

Joshy said...

Mr. Vincent,
You said "Has any of Antiochean Patriarch preach Christianity in India?Has they built any church in Malankara?or did they preach here and died for Jesus Christ?"

Just read the history books of any IOC historians, it wil give names of Bishops who died in Malankara for preserving the true faith. HB Baselious, HB shakralla and numer of bishops.

Why does IOC remember Mar Baselious of Kothamangalam in the Dyptch of Holy Qurbana, Is HB not an Antiochian Bishop.

When any of your Association meeting or Mooron Koodasha takes place, every time the IOC leadership remember and write article about the visit of HH Patriarch Pathrose IV in 1875 AD.
Before criticising the Antioch plz understand the Importance of the throne in Malankara.

vincent said...

Dear Joshy
I think you may have to go through the history of Malankara Church from A.d.52 to A.D.1685! You people always talk about immaterial things!Yeldho Mar Baselios died here because of old age and illness!He is not one who fought against Portughese! or Latin catholics!It is Jacobites who says or belive that everything in Malankara came from Antioch from A.D.52!Throne in Malankara belongs to whom?Can you give me any account of Christianity preached here by Antiochean with necessary d evidence or support!
Yeldho Bava is not from Antioch!The Thaksa used by Yeldho Bava is clear evidence to that!You must study when Antioch liturgy came in Malankara When and how rather than
critisizing MOSC!

Isaac said...

Was Peter the head of the apsotles-fact or myth? By Zach Steves.

Makes really thoughtful reading. It will help to end all false propaganda that is spread to mislead the people.

Open the link below:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/49846638/Was-Peter-the-Head-of-the-Apsotles-Fact-or-Myth

Joshy said...

Dear Vincent,
You said,"Can you give me any account of Christianity preached here by Antiochean with necessary d evidence or support!"
But Before you criticise Jacobites ask IOC historians about the evidance and documents that how can they come to the conclusion that during the pre-1653 period Malankara church was under Nestorian influnce. It is the catholic version especially the Jesuits. During the Diyamber Synod Portugeese had burned all the original documents of Malankara Sabha. So no way one can claim about the pre-1653 Church was whether it is Antichian or Assyrian liturgy prevailed in Malankara.
But why Jacobites calim it was Antiochin because the immediate leaders of the Church after the Cooonan Cross pledge, who born before 1653 followed the relationship with Antioch which they inherited from their forefathers. That is why Jacobites say Malankra Church had continued its realtionship with Antioch before the IOC said period of 1685.
And about the fight against Catholise by Antiochian bishops it would be better for you to read IOC historian M. Kurian Thomas' writings or ask him personally. He will give the naration about the HB Shakralla Vs catholics issue.

vincent said...

Dear Joshy
What you wrote here is totally misconception!Prior to A.D.1653 there were no Antioch relation or connection in Malankara!Mar Ahatulla was not an antiochean Bishop! The letter he wrote while in custody of Portughese at Mylapore which is now kept in Vatican is an evidence to that!Antioch relation started in Malankara after the arrival of Mar Yeldho Baselios!Mar Ivanios who came with Mar Yeldho Baselios( Ivanios came as a priest and he was consecrated by Yeldho Bava) was the one Who were forcing MAR THOMA METRHANS(PAKALOMATTAM FAMILY)to have connection with antioch and because of that Mar Sakralla Mafrian and team came in Malankara!
hilip or some historians made their history during the time of samudaya case and was not relying on actual facts or records of Kerala history !You may also read the liturgy of Malankara by authored byKurien Thomas!

sam said...

Dear All
refering to the peace and unity article by Rev.fr. K.K.John,in principle I agree with him!however I do not agree with his comments especially regarding MULAMTHURITHY ASSOCIATION!How Come patriarch Peter III convene a meeting in Malankara by then?Peter III Bava is the First Antiochean Patriarch who visited Malankara!The first Malankara Suriyani Kristhiani Association was convened at Parumala in 1873(Parumala Association) under Pulikootil Mar Dionyasius ,The Malankara Metropolitan!After Peter III Bava came in malankara,he visited various places then he consecrated 6 bishops without consulting THE MALANKARA Metropolitan!The Partriarch created 7 dioces by making agreement signed with those newly created 6 bishops!This was purely a way getting money from Malankara (by the way of REESHEESA from all dioces)and making Malankara a colony of Antioch!The 6 bishops were not consecrated at the same time or venue as consecration took place in 3 different days or time!This(consecration) was a personal decision by Peter III without convening Malankara Suriyani Kristiani Association!It was Malankara Association in Parumala(1873) made their suggestion to invite Antioch Patriarch to Malankara!Although Peter III Bava consecrated 6 new bishops with an Agreement,he was not able to make all the dioces under his custody through that agreement!Peter III dismissed the Malankara Association by a Bull/Kaplana in 1876.However in1878,again Parumala Malankara Association met they reorganised the dismissal of Malankara suriyani Kristhiani Association!My question is that When Pulokkottil Mar Joseph mar Dianyasius was the Malankara Metropolitan,how come Malankara Suriyani Kristiani Association was convened by Peter III Bava? May Fr.K.K. John really quote the history here regarding the factual errors committed by H.H.Marthoma Paulose II regarding the Association held in 1875?

vincent said...

Dear Joshy
Please read Mavelikkara Padiyola (1788 A.D.)and the Mulamthurithy Associaction Minutes or decisions(1876 A.D) regarding the liturgy and vestments in Malankara!Defnitely,you will get an idea of what was here in Malankara Prior to A.D.1685!Also note that last year (end of 2010) the Jacobite Church celeberated the Centenary of "Pampakuda Mamaskarakram" which also gives a clear indication idea about Antiochean liturgy was not here prior to A.D.1685!

Vayaliparamban said...

Fr.K.K.John has his own views and ideas with regard to peace. He along with mar Nicolovas came to our church. Today mar nicolovas is the diocese metropolitan. Hope he remembers his famous quotation, "veetill ninnum irangi, tharavattil chenno athumillay". All people have vested interest. Every one fabricates history according to their own convenience as a result even truth cannot be believed. Follow the faith and find the true history. Today St.Yeldho baseilios is an Antiochian father sent by the Syrian Patriarch. Does any body knows what did the Syrian Patriarch HH Peter IV did when he came to Kothamangalum church on seeing the tomb of Yeldho Baselios. In times to come they will even make St.Dionysius of Vattaseril one amongst them showing that they all will die for the Patriarch. The have already made St.Gregorios of Parumala an Antiochian fanatic. What a pity?

Joshy said...

The writings of Mr. Vincent, Sam's criticism against Fr. KK John and Valiyaparamban show that IOC is totally a confused Church as there is not clarity about the the hisory of IOC.The reason is that different people interpret chistory of Malankara Sabha differently. Some people say IOC is an independant church, but its 1935 constitution says Patriarch of Antioch is the head of the church. However, IOC Catholiocose says there is no other head above me except the God himself. Few say Prior to the visit of Abdul Jallen Mor Gregorious in 1665 Malankara Church was under the influece of Assyrian (nestorian) Church, but has no fafcual evidance to prove the relationship. Others say IOC is established by Mor Vattasseril in 1912, but continues with the Antiochian liturgy.

So my request is that first you people put your house in order then come to criticise Jacobites who has only one history, one throne and one liturgy

thoma_fj said...

dear joshy
read my comments on - February 23, 2011 12:48 PM and February 17, 2011 6:29 PM

vincent said...

@Mr.Joshy
Your comments/critisism towards SAM or Vincent is totally unwanted!Sam did not critisize Fr.K.K.John!Vincent gave some real facts about Antiochean liturgy or Antiochean relation in Malankara!You cannot accept the truth as Jacobites always chant and sing "Antioch".Those people who does not know their father always talk like that!Jesus never appointed Simon Peter as head of Apostles or head of his earthly church!That Is The Truth!!!Antioch is not the origin of Christianity!
Antioch is not the mother church also!
You were not able to give any proper answer to the questions/comments that Vincent raised here!Everything Antioch! "Sarvathum Anthyokiamayam!Ennu padunnallathe thelivu sahitham enthenkilum thaankalku ezhuthuvan kazhinjo"?
please refrain from unneceeasry and unwanted comments!Kannaduchu pidichal Irittaakilla!!!

sam said...

@Mr.Joshy
"manjappitham ullavanu ellam manjichirikkum"

sam said...

Att.Mr.Joshy
What ever you wrote here about MOSC/IOC are what jacobites,your own people says!not by IOC/MOSC people! we Know who is our father and our mother!You people follow only history written by Kaniamparabil Kurien Chor Episcopa/or E.M. Philip which were written mainly for jacobites by themselves hiding the real facts!
You only read Bible translated by Fr. Kurien Chor episcopa! That is not our fault!In Malankara the syrian language/liturgy came not because of Antiocheans! Antiocheans only came after 1685.! Prior to coonan cross oath all(majority) Malankara Nazranis were using Syrian Liturgy but not Assyrian/nesthor Liturgy!
You people do not want to know the truth or real facts as you say like in Malayalam" Seetha araanennu chothichal Ravanante Bharya anu"This exactly you people (jacobites)always do/follow!
You read the Whole 1934constiuition of MOSC! Then you will understand Who is Patriarch and what his position in MOSC! Supreme court of India upheld our constiuition! you are not more than S/C of India!

rajanthomas said...

Attention Mr.Joshy
can you quote from Bible or from any scripture that in Antioch St.Peter established throne?Jesus Christ Commanded and sent his apostles for preaching Kingdom of God! Not for establishing Thrones!All apostles are representatives/ambassadors of Jesus Christ!You read book of revelation thoroughly ,then you will understand what is Throne!You are just like blind Scribes and Pharisee/Sadduces of Jesus' time!Acts of apostle 1-12 chapters describes early mission of St.Peter together with other apostles and no mention of throne or any church!One of your Learned clergy wrote in your PARADOOSHANA MASIKA that The time/moment that Jesus Saw simon Peter he(jesus) called him as Cephas!This is pure lie as those who normally read the bible (refer the four gospels)can understand the context,time or day or the occasion in which Jesus spoke about the word Cephas/rock!
after calling simon Peter as rock,Jesus also told Simon Peter as Satan/devil.You are just like that/behave smilarly, as you people only look for worldly things/position and power!
Your "one faith" is(self glorification/Greatness) Power,position and glory of this world! Your"one Throne" is also for self Glorification /self existence!Your "one Faith"is on throne of Antioch(imaginary) and not Jesus Christ the savior!

mohanmathew said...

@Joshy

Orthodox Church is very clear about its past, present and future too. Let us not discuss the past for sometime since we do not agree on this topic.

What about your PRESENT and FUTURE? ARE YOU NOT HEADING FOR A DISASTER AT ANY MOMENT? ARE YOU AWARE OF THE CHARGES & ALLEGATIONS (which the court seriously observed and ordered to be investigated) AGAINST YOUR TOP LEADER? Are you aware that Jacobite Athibhadranam's relationship with Antioch is on the wane?

Ravi George said...

jacobite leaders play some wild games: They picture themselves as Syrian and Orthodox as Indian Orthdox Church.

Whether you agree or not, Syrian is ocmmon to both camps. Syrian signifies the liturgy language, and not the geographical region. Therefore the Orthodox chruh is more Syrian than Jacobites Athibhadrasanam. Syriac, the liturgy language is common to all. Antioch people also learn it like we do it here. (Since their mothertoungue is ARABIC).

We are proud to be called INDIANS. Teh equakl term for the jacobite is ARABIAN.

mohanmathew said...

YES

Jacobites are members of Arabean Orthdox Church.

Ebenezar said...

Dear Joshy
Jacobites in Malankara are anti-orthodox,the reason you beleive and preach that Priesthood of Jesus Christ in his church is converged through St.Peter or his successors alone!This is unbiblical and not based on scriptures!Therefore you people are totally wrong!Oriental orthodox churches do not follow this antibiblical teaching!We dont need your "one faith" and "onethrone" concept here!

samji said...

Dear Ravi George
Don't call this Jacobites as Syrians! When they are in Syria, they are mere Indians!In Malankara they call themselves syrians to identify themselves with Syrian Patriarch or former Antiochean Church!They beleive it was St.Peter who sent St.Thomas to Malankara/Kerala and Church in Malankara are given priesthood through Antioch throne Which totally and basically untrue/un real facts!Threy are like Jews who told Jesus that their Father is ABRAHAM!Just like that! for them St.Peter is going to open the Heaven to have free access for jacobites!
Their Holy fathers in Antioch never follow what St.Peter instructed them to follow through his epistles!Another thing their holy fathers until A.D.1875 did not use the word/title "AND ALL THE EAST" after Peter III bava visited malankara1nA.D.1875 they(antiochean) changed title as "Partriarch of Antioch all the East" there were no universal orthodox synod met or approved this title!
"veenathu Vidhya akkunna koottar or alkar"this Antiochean Bishops and their supporters in Malankara!

rajanthomas said...

Dear All
One of the Jacobite fellow wrote in this blog that "The source of Pure and holy priesthood is from Antioch"(Kalankamillatha paurohithyantinte uravidam Antokia)Does this guy really understand the Priesthood Of Jesus Christ!If Jesus Christ,The Eternal ,High priest who gave his 12 Disciples this gift as as his ambasadors. This guy who wrote this is totally an ignorant and blind person!All his(Jesus) 12 disciples got priesthood! There is no place in Scriptures mentioning anything about Priesthood in Antioch! Beware of this people in this millenium!

vincent said...

Dear All
The Article by Babu Paul in Knanaya Deepam regarding vision of H.H.Zaka I,refers:-
If H.H.Zaka is truly peace loving person he could not have consecrated H.B.Thomas as Catholicate/Mafriana of India in the firstplace!
Secondly hisprecedessorH.H.Yakkoob III divided Malankara Church through his heretic teaching/bull,consecrated and createduncanonically/unconstituitionally a Mafrian Paulose BaseliosII (paulose Mar Philexinos)!
MOSC did not show disrepect to any Patriarch!Even before 1995 verdict of S/court of India the Patriarch is honoured by MOSC through its constituition and Liturgy!
The Unity or peace in Malankara can be acheived through initiative of Antioch Patriarch which they are always reluctant!Even Babu Paul as a close friend ofH.H. Zaka I,did not make any initiative for peace in Malankara!The Main obstacle in Unity and Peace in Malankara are the creation of Unwanted and neccssary Mafrinate/catholicate created by H.H.Yakkob III andH.H.ZakaI.The U.K.faithful of Jacobite Church requested H.H.Zaka to take action against H.B.Thomas I for mention of his name in the Murder case investigated by C.B.I by CJM court!Why H.H.Zaka remaining silent? Why H.H.Zaka directly want administer/oversee,the overseas dioces of Jacobite Church of India Like U.S.A and Europe?Babu Paul should also come with proper answers to thsese situations/ problems!The Existence of Jacobite Church in India is mainly due the dispute/conflict with MOSC!Also It is not successors of St.Peter are the source of Priest Hood in Christ Church on this earth!

rajanthomas said...

യാക്കോബായ സഭയുടെ വേദവിപരീതം
2002 -ലെ യാക്കോബായ സഭ പഠിപ്പിക്കുന്നതും വിശ്വസിപ്പിക്കൂന്നതുമയ വേദവിപരീതം
" ആത്മീയ നല്‍വരങ്ങളുടെ ഉറവിടം പ. അന്ത്യോക സിംഹസനമാണെന്ന്"
ആത്മ ദാതാവ് ആരാണ്?ആത്മ്മീയ നല്‍വരങ്ങള്‍ ആത്മ ദാതാവില്‍ നിന്നാണ്
പ്രാപികുന്നത്! വേദപുസ്തകത്തില്‍ എങ്ങും പറഞ്ഞിട്ടില്ലാത്ത കാര്യം യാക്കോബായ സഭ
പഠിപ്പിക്കുന്നു! ശ്രേഷ്ട ബാവ എന്ത് പറഞ്ഞാലും അതേപടി വിശ്വസിക്കുന്ന /പ്രവര്‍ത്തിക്കുന്ന
ഒരു വിഭാഗം കോമണ്‍ സെന്‍സ് ഇല്ലാത്ത ജനതകള്‍ ആണ് യാക്കോബായ വിഭാഗം!

Evolution said...

Dear sam as you said, the antiochian church came over to India to enforce their vestments, beliefs and practices. At that time we were very much forward in christian way of life and was practising the east syriac rite. I don't know whether this east syriac rite is native of India formulated by our forefathers?!! It must be, otherwise our church fathers would not have propagated this story. But fortunately it matches(at some points) with the main stream church history believed in Kerala. We can certainly claim that we are called puthenkoottukaar by the syro malabar christians due to this reason. Another doubt arises here, if that is the case then syro malabar church is practicing east syriac tradition. If it is true we should tell them to stop doing it and it belongs to us. If it is not true then we should find out the real east syriac rite and adopt it and teach this antiochians a lesson. but the doubts do not end here so we were only ruled by the arkkadiakon(arch deacon) and was not in connection with any churches of the world. then who ordained arch deacon. Catholicose of the east?? He was not our head then??!!! or he himself proclaimed as priest or high priest. why we did not get a full bishop?? I also doubt since we are for pro Indian and anti foreign rule then how come this east syriac tradition come in line with that. St.Thomas came with east syriac tradition?? why he did not make a tradition in line with the India's culture? we should have protested at that point itself and tell him we will not allow any foreign rule or practice.

samji said...

Dear Evolution
please refer to Mavelikkara Padiyola of 1788(A.D.)or article by Malankara Church and liturgy by M.Kurien Thomas you will get full details of the tradition of MOSC liturgy in Malankara!During the Portughese rule Arch Bishop Menezis of Goa destroyed by fire all our liturgy in East syriac as he ordered to seize and destroy everything of Our Liturgy in all churches from north to south in malankara(kerala). Roman (Syro Malabar/Malankara )catholics use East syriac was mainly that they(roman catholic) try to attract our people by following East syriac by then.Even Latin Catholics tried to make their liturgy in East syriac in order to get/attract Malankara Nazranis to their faith!

sampariyarathu said...

Dear Evolution
Prior to A.D.52,ancient kerala had trade relations with Presia and alexandrea(eagypt).When St.thomas arrived here there were jews merchants in Malankara who used to speak East syriac of Persia!St.thomas has all the authority like st.peter to ordain or conscrate successors in his church! St.Thomas had his successors in Persian Church Mar Adai and Mar Mari!Malankara Church since A.D.52 usedEast syriac as Liturgy Language until A.D.1788!
However during Portughese era of rule the Latin Catholics under Arch Bishop Menezis wanted to convert all nazranis of malankara to latin catholic and they used East syriac as liturgy language for that purpose!After the Portughese Dutch and British rule came in Kerala But the Roman catholics of Europe followed the same pattern of Latin Catholic style i.e. Litugy in East syriac to convert all Malankara Nazranis to their faith!However Malankara Nazaranis of st.Thomas rejected the European faith and they tried to contact church in Alexandrea,Persia and also church in antioch! The antiocheans or Persian Church bishops who were under Church of antioch contacted/responded to us first!Therefore a team of people came under Mafrian mar Sakralla in A.D.1751 in Malankara who brought west syriac here only at Cochin region only(Cochi was a seperate country in Kerala,there were kingdoms of Thiruvithamcore and Kozhikode)During Marthoma VI there were an Agreement signed by Mathoma VI and Mar Sakralla mafrian at Puthiyakavu Mavelikkara in A.D.1788 for making the official liturgy in west syriac for whole malankara church!

«Oldest ‹Older   1 – 200 of 220   Newer› Newest»