Wednesday, September 1, 2010

THE FUTURE OF CHRISTINITY IN INDIA

THE FUTURE OF CHRISTINITY IN INDIA

Jesus said ALL NATIONS will come to know GOD. Is it not applicable to India ?
But we shy away from discussing the FUTURE like ostriches dipping heads in sand. All our discussions are about the past which we cannot correct.
What is the future of the Orthodox faith in India ? Should it be linked with Antioch FOR EVER? Can we grow and ever become a national church acceptable to ALL INDIANS if we continue to be under ARAB HEADS forever?
Now we have only 2.5 per cent Christians in India . The general complaint heard about Indian Christianity is that “it is a foreign religion.” NOBODY SAYS JESUS IS FOREIGN. While MOST INDIANS ACCEPT JESUS AS ONE AMONG THEIR GODS, they refuse to accept a FOREIGN COUNTY LEADERSHIP of the church. China has officially stated this policy not to accept foreign leadership of the Church.
Catholic Church has never had an Indian Pope. But their constitution does not prohibit an Indian becoming a Pope, though practically they had all the Popes from Europe only. In future too, they’ll have only European Popes.
But when it comes to Church leadership, Antioch ’s constitution prohibits a NON-ARAB becoming head (PATRIARCH) of the Syrian Orthodox Church. This has been particularly stated in their Constitution so as to prohibit Indians who are in majority becoming the Patriarch of the Church.

235 comments:

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Reni said...

YES, this is a FACT almost 99.99 per cent of our discussion topics are centered on the past.
We have been neglecting our future generation with unnecessary issues that keep us away from thinking about the future.

History can give us very good lessons. So learning history is very much needed, but never at the cost of the future.

We can reason that connections with Syrian Church should be on equal terms if we think about the future of Christianity in India.

I think even the future generations of the Jacobites will also agree with us. In fact we should have a form for the FUTURE just like we have one like HISTORY COUNCIL.

Ravi George said...

Jacobites want to keep us always in the dark history so that we do not think about the future.

We have to break this cycle and plan our destiny.

Our desitiny is not linked with Antioch Church who just enjoy their opulent lifestyle.

We have a great responsibility towrds our nation.
How can Antioch who do not have a say in their own country help us? Had they been gentle, they would have helped us to stand on our own. We had to fight with them (still fighting) for our freedom. All this happened becasue they could cleverly divide us.

The division in the Malankara Church is still haunting us. But now since we have come forward, nothing can take us backward. I'm sure the future generations of Jacobites will also appreciate our struggle for freedom. Eventually there will be none with Antioch who tried to divide us.

So if Antioch wants its connections in India forever, it is in their own interest to give freedom to us.

We are maintaining links with all churches on equal terms. ther can not be master-slave relationship.
This is very important for the future of Indian Christianity.

mohanmathew said...

ithu valare pradhaanappetta oru vishayam anu. Antiochyakarkku Indiayile christians-ne adimakalaakki vecchu jeevikkanamenna vichaaram mathramanu. Ivide ninnum panam kondupokaanallathe enthenkilum namukku vendi cheyyan avarkku kazhinjittundo? Kaiveppu ennu paranju lokaavasaanattholam peedippikkamo? Ini athonnum bother cheyyenda karyam illa.

Avide swantham sabhaye nannayi nokkaatthavarkku ivide engaene athu saddhikkum?

Reni said...

The basic reason for the continued interfernce in India is due to the presence of certain bootlickers in Malankara. We cannot expect more from foreigners who want to live on our money and stregth.

Before independence was won, British exploited us.

Now the spiritual slavery must go. I think this is very important for our growth and dignity.

The people who support the continuation of Antioch are also beneficiaries of this culture of slavery. They have brainwashed so many poor innocent people by showing 'kaiveppu'

Why we want foreign bishops to rule when we have Bishops here in India? Why should Kaiveppu matter? Even Antioch had Kaiveppu from another church.
Our original kaiveppu which came from St Thomas is the only important one. (OUR CHURCH SHOULD DECLARE IT as official policy).

It is just like we borrowing fire for our kitchen when ours was blown off for some reason. (It is only Christian duty to help) So if we have borrowed it, what all is cooked in our kitchen belonged to them?

Such salmoosas of slavery are not christian in spirit and can be broken if there is anything agaisnt our Christian freedom. We need to obey Christ more than anybody else

Ravi George said...

If the Antioch church is sincere about UNIVERSAL SYRIAN BROTHERHOOD, they have to prove it by giving equal rights to all the members of the church wherever they are.

Roman chuch cannot be CATHOLIC and be specifically ROMAN

ANTIOCH church cannot be CATHOLIC because they can have only an ARAB as its earthly head. This is in fact racial

Reni said...

Most quarrels in Malankara happens because we are not looking farward. When we look forward, we see a nation of 120 crore people. What is role of Arabs here? They should look forward in Arabia, not in India. Arabs have no role to play in India. Please leave India to Indians. How can a Church which is on the decline in their own land help a nation of 120 crore.

I do not want to follow Antioch because they are a failed church. Alpathil viswsthan adhikathilum viswasthan. Antioch is not a responsible Church. How can be given charge in Indian Church?

Ravi George said...

Why all these STATHIKKON discussions? These are all to keep Indians in bondage. We should kick out such things from here.


There is no greatest Sthathikon than Christ given authority. That had been given to us by ST THOMAS. We do not want any other stathikkon from any foeign bishop

Reni said...

Dear friends,

Personally I have great admiration for HB Thomas. Though not a spiritual person, Thomas Thirumeni has got capacity to manage many things. But as a Christian leader, HB Thomas should not focus too much on material things. What the Jacobite church lack is a sytem which HB Thomas or anybody can function with in that limit. (That i swhy they hate 1934 constitution thoughin court they'll always swear by that)

Above all, there is no vision for CHURCH TOMORROW except that Jacobiet Church but continue to be under ARABS.

What I always hear is "HH Patriarch is spiritually superior. What is spiritual superiority? Thus Arabs who are directly under HH patriach are also spiritual superiors. Is that why Jacobiets in India do not have any say in the affairs of your UNIVERSAL CHURCH?
India is free nation and Indians are not behind anybody. If we do not have national integrty we should better leave this country.

Being an Indian for generations, I cannot digest this 'foreign superior' thoery of Jacobites.

Ravi George said...

Continous foreign atacks and foreign 'vanity' in the last 500 years have corrupted the mind of Narasnis who were once well-known for their loyalty to this land. The latest being Gurgan of GERMANY. It seems Pounds, Dollars, Mark can buy our minds. Arabs are the only people who took away money as as well as faithful!

Some of these people even do not respect the LAW OF THE LAND

NAMMUDE JANATTHINTE KANNU THURANNIRUNNENKIL!

mohanmathew said...

Though Jacobites lack a system, Orthodox do not have a PERFECT system yet. Lot needs to be done.

I agree it has improved tremendoulsy, but not ENOUGH.

To be truly nationalistic Orthodox Church bishops should accept the Indian tradition of simplicity wholeheatedly.

Some people just aim to become to leave in luxuary and public respect.

Success of the Indian Churh greatly depend on the vision and lifestyle of Bishops. Will the bishops imbibe this attitude?

Reni said...

There is a lot of misunderstanding among Jacobites

about the stand taken by the Orthodox church

regarding its relation with Antioch Church.

We are NOT for severing relationship or for

overpowering Antioch. We want to maintain excellent relationship among all the churches of Syrian tradition. BUT IT CAN NEVER BE MASTER-SLAVE or SUPERIOR -INFERIOR relationship.

But Why? A Master-SLAVE or SUPERIOR

-INFERIOR relationship will not work for many

reasons.

Like many other churches Malankara Sabha had its

difficult days. And we have got helps from

many other churches. For example Persian Church,

Antioch Church..

(Kindly Remember: Antioch also had taken such helps from outsiders)


Taking a help does not mean that we have to be uder them forever.

Difficult days are like childhood. In childhood, parents support children. But as they grow up and become adult, mature parents will not deal in the same way as they dealt with the child.

Now Antioch church, with its dwindling numbers, is in a state of childhood. Malankra Church can play the role of a parent to Antioch Church. Does that mean Antiochia should become our slave? NO NOT AT ALL
So there is going back. Relationship with Antioch can exist only on EQUAL FOOTING. IF ANTIOCH WILL NOT ACCEPT IT NOW, THEY ONLY WILL BE LOSERS

George said...

We cannot change history, but we can distort it. We are all interested in distortions favoring us. Why can't we look into future? The future of Christianity in India is very bleak if we judge on the basis of material growth. Let us forget about material growth. Let us think of our spiritual growth. The gospel should reach us, the faithfuls first.But we are again diluting the gospel to suit our vested interests. We spend most of our time by judging others. We want to correct others without correcting ourselves. Why can't we plan out a month, say the 25 day Yeldho lent, keeping ourselves in a sort of introspection without passing any judgement on others and without correcting others? We can experience wonders in our life. May be I am not very practical. But, we have to undergo some sort of a change. If this is not practical, we have to make it practical. Chritianity can surely grow in India.
###George Joseph###

Geogy Abraham said...

Mr. George explained in Christian way which is the correct one. We all have to increase our spiritual needs first.
Spread the word of GOD, seek peace in harmony.

GA

Geogy Abraham said...

The topic for discussion “the future of Christianity in India” is excellent.

THE CHRISTIANITY WILL SPREAD ONLY IF THEY INSIST FOR PEACE AND HARMONY TO EXIST ON EARTH. According to me Christian is the only religion who spread peace and seeks for harmony. But if you compare with the growth of Muslims their growth rate is very rapid when compared to Christians.
Growth of Christianity in North India may be not soo easy due to the RSS & similar mentality type of people.

But in Malankara church the basic principal of Christianity is lacking. I think Christians has to learn from other religions. In olden days other religion people used say all must learn from the Christians, but now it has come the reverse. In Malankara Syrian Church fighting and filing cases still exists & it is now in their blood. If there is Christianity in this church these court cases would have been settled well before. Here, both faction (i.e. Jacobite & IOC) are thinking that they are above the other. There has to be some give & take policy or one has to accept what they are.

Both factions Synods must come together and resolve the issues in Christ ways i.e. peacefully & in harmony. I DON’T KNOW WHETHER THIS WILL HAPPEN???

Currently what people should do is, at least take steps to open the closed down churches and make facilities or arrangement for both faction to do their services or spiritual activities. Further on, then both synods must discuss how to settle the cases permanently. Conduct elections according to the parent church register list and divide the properties among each other. Currently such incident has occurred in Malabar Cheergari church. I am sure such step, IOC devalokam members won’t like or disagree with; as they are greedier. They need all “CROSS” which are constructed under the sun be under Devalokam. This is their approach. How such approach is accepted in a democratic country like INDIA, if it is king ruled country one can understand.

It is not the Bishops (Antioch Patriarch/Malankara Metropotilan/Catholicose) or the priest who will administer the church & its organization administration; it is the church parishioners who shall do the same. Church committee members shall be elected through “Palli Pothuyougham” or “Election” for the post of Trusties, Secretary & Executive members. Bishops (Antioch Patriarch/Malankara Metropotilan/Catholicose) & Priest should have only spiritual powers; or they are the spiritual head of the church.

Why the IOC devalokam group not coming for the discussion in settlement of cases for ever even though the Patriarch faction openly invited to the same. In the current situation it is because of the IOC members which led the church closed in Kandanad & Angamali diocese even though they are only 20-25%. This all because of the unity which happened in 1958. This unity ruined the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church. Therefore, now talking about unity is unacceptable to Jacobite faction.

For all knowledge Patriarch of Antioch is not taking any money from Patriarch churches in India. Only if the palli pothuyogham decides it is given, else it is spend here itself for good deeds or other church developments. Churches are not individual property (whether it is Patriarch of Antioch/Indian Catholicose); it is owned by the parishioners and administered by elected members’ positions called trustee, secretary & committee members, not by Indian bishops or foreign bishops.

ONLY IF the church disputes get settled in Malankara church we can talk about the betterment, future, and vision of CHURCH & spread of Christianity in Kerala, India & World.

Regards,
GA

Geogy Abraham said...

I hope this will be posted in this blog.

Part-1
The topic for discussion “the future of Christianity in India” is excellent.

THE CHRISTIANITY WILL SPREAD ONLY IF THEY INSIST FOR PEACE AND HARMONY TO EXIST ON EARTH. According to me Christian is the only religion who spread peace and seeks for harmony. But if you compare with the growth of Muslims their growth rate is very rapid when compared to Christians.
Growth of Christianity in North India may be not soo easy due to the RSS & similar mentality type of people.

But in Malankara church the basic principal of Christianity is lacking. I think Christians has to learn from other religions. In olden days other religion people used say all must learn from the Christians, but now it has come the reverse. In Malankara Syrian Church fighting and filing cases still exists & it is now in their blood. If there is Christianity in this church these court cases would have been settled well before. Here, both faction (i.e. Jacobite & IOC) are thinking that they are above the other. There has to be some give & take policy or one has to accept what they are.

Both factions Synods must come together and resolve the issues in Christ ways i.e. peacefully & in harmony. I DON’T KNOW WHETHER THIS WILL HAPPEN???

Currently what people should do is, at least take steps to open the closed down churches and make facilities or arrangement for both faction to do their services or spiritual activities. Further on, then both synods must discuss how to settle the cases permanently. Conduct elections according to the parent church register list and divide the properties among each other. Currently such incident has occurred in Malabar Cheergari church. I am sure such step, IOC devalokam members won’t like or disagree with; as they are greedier. They need all “CROSS” which are constructed under the sun be under Devalokam. This is their approach. How such approach is accepted in a democratic country like INDIA, if it is king ruled country one can understand.

Geogy Abraham said...

Part-2

It is not the Bishops (Antioch Patriarch/Malankara Metropotilan/Catholicose) or the priest who will administer the church & its organization administration; it is the church parishioners who shall do the same. Church committee members shall be elected through “Palli Pothuyougham” or “Election” for the post of Trusties, Secretary & Executive members. Bishops (Antioch Patriarch/Malankara Metropotilan/Catholicose) & Priest should have only spiritual powers; or they are the spiritual head of the church.

Why the IOC devalokam group not coming for the discussion in settlement of cases for ever even though the Patriarch faction openly invited to the same. In the current situation it is because of the IOC members which led the church closed in Kandanad & Angamali diocese even though they are only 20-25%. This all because of the unity which happened in 1958. This unity ruined the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church. Therefore, now talking about unity is unacceptable to Jacobite faction.

For all knowledge Patriarch of Antioch is not taking any money from Patriarch churches in India. Only if the palli pothuyogham decides it is given, else it is spend here itself for good deeds or other church developments. Churches are not individual property (whether it is Patriarch of Antioch/Indian Catholicose); it is owned by the parishioners and administered by elected members’ positions called trustee, secretary & committee members, not by Indian bishops or foreign bishops.

ONLY IF the church disputes get settled in Malankara church we can talk about the betterment, future, and vision of CHURCH & spread of Christianity in Kerala, India & World.

Regards,
GA

Jomon said...

Dear Friends, Do you think that the future of christianity in India is fighting Syrian Orthodox Church/Jacobite Church/Arubs as many of your postings reveals.
My Dear friends, the future of Christianity will not be bright if you go on fighting. Please give up your weapons and accept the other person as he is. Because you are entrusted with the secuirity and life of your brother.
I think you get what I mean.

Mathew said...

Oh .. ethra manoharamaya discussion !!

Onnu chodichotte ? India kaaran patriarchese aayaal ividuthe prashnangal motham theeruvo ?

Pinne ividunnu cash kondupokunna kaaryam... Eee cash cash maathram aagrahichirikunnathukonda anganeyokke thonnunnathu...Ee paranja viddithankalokke prove cheyan pattumo ?

Future of christianity in India Patriarcheseineyum yakobaya sabhayeyum theri vilichu maathrame nilanirthan pattu metran kakshikalkku alle ?

Kalikaalam!!!

sampariyarathu said...

Dear All
We Malankara Nazranis were lagging behind in preaching the gospel in our country! There are various reasons for that. But now the situation in India is very different and conversion of people into Christians are difficult due to legislative laws or rules!
However with help of modern media system we can do this! Our North Indian Dioceses can make plans for this through "Bhilai mission" founded by L/L Theodosus thirumeni! For this we must first stop all litigations in Mankara !
Our mentality and attitude also be changed!
If we do not make use of all available oppertunities now, the future will be a country without Christians!

eldhose said...

FOREIGN BISHOP NA ANGEEKARIKAN KAZHIYATHA KANJIKUZHI SAAHAYKU ANGANE JESUS NA ANGEEKARIKAN KAZHIYUM (BECAUSE JESUS IS NOT AN INDIAN) ATHU KONDU ORU INDIAN JESUS NA THATTIKUTTAN VALIYA PRAYASAMUNDAKILLA. ANNITTU COURT IL PALLIKAL POOTIKAN CASE KODUTHAL CHILAPPOL CASE NU BALAM UNDAKUM.CASE NU BALAM KITTAN ANTHUM CHAYYUNNAVARANALLO NINGAL(COURT IL PATRIARCH NA
ANGEEKARIKUKAYUM PURATHU ARABI ANNU VILICHU KALIYAKUKAYUM CHAYUNNAVARANANALLO NINGAL .KALAKALANGALIL ANTHYOKYA SIMHASANATHIL NINUM VANNA PITHAKANMAR EVIDA BHISHAPPUMARA VAZHICHILLAYIRUNNENKIL MALANKARA SABHAYA ENNATHE NILAYILAKIYA VATTASERI YUM DIDIMOS UM ALLAM PADATHUM PARAMBILUM PANIYEDUTHU ORU NALLA INDIAN AYENE.PINNE PUTIYA YAKOBAYA THALAMURA KANJIKUZI SABHA YUDA VARUTHIL VARUM ANNULLATHU VARUM MOHAM MATHRAMANU. ONNAMATHE PATRIARCH AYA ST.PETER IL IL THUDANGI 122 MATHE PATRIARCH AYA MORAN MOR IGNATHIOUS SAKHA IVAS PATRIARCH VARA ATHI NILKUNNA PATRIARCH MARUDA PADIPIKALUKALUM MALANKARAYILA PITHAKANMARUDA PADIPIKALUM ORU ANUVIDA POLUM THETTATHE KATHU PARIPALIKUNNA ORU THALAMURAYANU YAKOBAYA SABHAYUDATHU.
KANJIKUZHI SABHAYILA YUVA THALAMURA CHARITRAM PADIKUMBOL AVAR KANJIKUZHI SABHAYIL UNDAKUMO ANNU CHINTHIKU. ANTHYOKYA MALANKARA BHANDHAM NEENAL VAZHATTE.

sampariyarathu said...

Dear Orthodox Believers!
Let me put this way, How Many Syrian Partriach came in Malankara
preach Christianity in India?
How many Catholicose/ their priests on both side preach gospel among non-believers!
kindly stop all church fueds/talks here. Here as orthodox believers what/how can we promote/do in spreading the gospel among the majority non-believers in India.
As Christians we are supposed to show our unity and harmony in India.Can we show that Majority of Indians that we are peacemakers and real followers of Christ?
Rather than critsizing each other do we have anything of our own?
We are not showing the real path to our future generations!

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Eldhose
stop your nonsense! Do you have any constructive opinion about the subject issue you may bring it here!
You do not want talk about christianity in India/or Indian subcontinent. You must know Christianity in India is not founded/ brought by Antiochean Partriarchs!
When the Europeans came in India,they spread Roman Catholicsm,Protastands christianism here in India.
Had Jacob Bardiaess(yakkoob burdhana)ever tried to Split the Church? or ordained many rebel bishops in Church?Jesus is not foreign because he is The Only One Who paid Ransom for the whole World.He is our Redeemer!What Jesus said to his apostles To preach the gospel to all nations,people everywhere in the world!Apart from the Apostles Preaching in the early Church can you show any partriarchof Antioch/Rome/Alexandrea/constantapinole went to preach gospel among non-believers? from 3rd centuary onwards!

Reni said...

Who said Indians wil not accept Jesus? For Hindus too Jesus is ONE AMONG THEIR GODS.

But it is not true of outsiders who want to RULE and TAKE AWAY MONEY.

Hope the difference is clear, SIRS
Whether we like it or not, Christianity will be FREE in this century

rinsam2002 said...

Dear All
We should focus on the subject issue not the relation between Malankara and Antioch!Christ himself is the suject and issue. Jesust Christ Commanded All His Disciplees to Go everywhere To all nations preach the Kingdom ofGod/ Heaven and baptisize everybody everywhere in the name of Father,in the name of Son And Holy Spirit! This is the Subject issue for discussion and comments! We do not want any Comments on other issues or people and irrelevant matters!
To My Jacobite friends, This is not forum to discuss or Chanting Of Antiochean Slogans! Our Slogans and Chanting are for Risen Christ Who is the Redeemer!Jesus Christ is the saviour of The Whole world,irrespective of Jews,Arabs,Gentiles,Greeks,Barbarian,slaves,foreigner,freeman,Scythian,or Who are in Bondage! If we put on Christ ,we must act like Christ,then we become Christians!
Otherwise we are not Christians!
leaving Christ's commandmemds are concentrating self/selves are not serving Christ!
The question here is Who Is Our Master? Jesus Christ? or Or Something Else?
Are we imitators of Christ or insultors of Christ? We should not behave like instigators of earthly matters!Exactly this is what is happening now in this blog!

sam said...

To Geogy Abraham/Eldhose
Please note this is NOT the forum to discuss the peace issue in Malankara! The Peace and harmony which prevailed from 1958December to 1971 are not there due to Divisions and disunity among orthodox christians!Let me put this The Issue of Partition of Church/property is not an issue of peace at all in Malankara!The Issue of peace/unity efforts are thwarted by people who are Selfish and people ever stood for Power,greed and wealth desire!Desire of worldly /earthly things give birth to Sin of DESIRE! Jesus Christ never appointed a single disciple as Head of his Ministry in earth!He told his disciples those who wish to be Greatest among them to be slaves/smallest among them!(Luke 22:26-27).
Now In Malankara there are two different /seperate divisions of Orthodox faith under two different Constituitions and Heads! They have to now follow the Country's rule of law or Court orders/verdict rather than sharing percentage basis as none of the two divisions were agreeing to sort out issues/ church fued in reconciliation by Other Mediatiors or arbitration tribunal of other christian leaders in india suggested/proposed by supreme court of India!
The best solution is that since the two factions/divisions never followed the christian priciplels and morals fore more than a centuary there is no need to cry for sharing properties on the basis of percentage now! all the disputed properties /churches shoulde be governed by law of the land until court cases are over! Why did The Lord harden the Heart of Pharaoh of Egypt?When Antiochean partiarch himself asked his supporting faction to follow Supreme court verdicts of1995,who went against his Will/or order who rejected his Kalapana ?
How come Geogy says Partriarch faction openly invited for dicussuion it was Devalokam who did not listen to that?Those who chant antiochean slogans themselves did not follow the Kalpana of thier own Head Of Church of Antioch in1995/96 and why should they blame catholiocse of Devalokam?Those who requested in s/c to conduct Malankara Syrian Christian Association, later withraw themselves ,do not want follow supreme court decision for the coducting of Malankara suriani kristiani association why did they go and form a New Society/or a sperate church under Socities Act in 2002?
Don't try to fool others or never pretend that Jacobites are ever Peace lovers and real followers of Yakkoob Burhahana!(who preseved the real orthodox faith)

Now leave the issue sharing church property as this was not whole issue in Disunity/or church Fued for the last 100years or more! The important aspect is under the orthodox faith how can you witness Jesus in the Sub continent of Hindu Oriented Country,where St.Thomas apostle preached Gospel Here in Malankara and died for his Master! Priority should be this isuue of future of Orthodox Ciristianity In India! Any reasonable comments or valuable suggestions for that without going back to old issues from Advent of 1600 centuary church battles!
Sam Kodiyattu

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Eldhose
you have no genuine comments here to make! Only allegations you always make in MOSC web blog! You cannot support any of your allegations with enough proof.
Let me ask you one thing can you tell me where did,the title Partriarch originate and how?
can you tell me why did the Antiochean fathers move to Damascus? Any Place they did preaching gospel as from 4th centuary?

Why did Partriarch Elias III come to Malankara on peace(?) mission and what was the reason for the total failure of his mission?
Also note that,what was the cause assyrian genocide in 1915,how much he (Elias III)got from Turkish Sultan to conceal that?
Do not throw mud on Vattaserril Methrachen as he was Kicked out by Holy father Partriarch in Mardeen which was against Christianity!
What happened those family of late C.J.Kurien who organised killing of Anappappy !
Didimose Bava is not the cause of present situation in Malankara. This Present situation is caused by Your Own Holy fathers in 1970's!
By receiving A Book Of Das Captial from A CPM Minister(who is aways against Christians)by Partriarch, is Called Antiochean Way of Preaching Christianity/Or Jacobite Suvishem in Kerala/India?
By learning history of Jacobites/MOSC are not going to spread Christ's gospel in India.rather than thinking the future of christianity in India in the way of Christ,digging back all days of darkness and throwing mud to people will not solve any problem!
As a true Jacobite christian how many received/accepted Jesus as saviour/redeemer through you?
I am also taking liberty to tell a
real incident here. Myself another two friends of mine (one Jacobite,one knanayaJacobite)went visit a coptic mission. We were received by the priest in charge there and during the intoduction My Jacobite friend told the priest that he is Syrian Orthodox Christian,and the Knanaya Jacobite claimed himself Original Christian from Eddessa(Urha)The Knanaya Jacobite told the priest that myself as a Converted christian of MOSC(margavasi).However the priest in coptic mission got confused with these introductry remarks.after the intorduction the priest led us to varius acivities of his mission including a Bible class. We were told by priest to tell something about Christianity(st.Thomas Christians) in India. the Knanaya jacobite had nothing to tell he kept quiet. The syrian Christian(jacobite) told he cannot tell anything himself so he asked me to convey something for three of us! after the end of bible Class the priest asked us to pray for his mission!
Then the other two told the priest,pointing out me, our converted friend(MOSC) here will do that!
The priest asked why the two who claimed original christian from Eddessa,Syrian orthodox Christian cannot do that! Why The MOSC guy had to that?Although this happened we are still mutual frieds !
Apart from claiming legacy of St.Peter/Antioch,there is nothing you can show to the people of India as a Christian!
I am not saying that MOSC are blameless!However we have to work out something for our future!

Geogy Abraham said...

The future of Christianity in INDIA, Catholic’s are taking care of it very well (i.e. in the current scenario). As they have diversified administrative system. Catholic’s mass & other prayers are translated in Hindi, Tamil, Kanada, Marathi etc..i.e most of all the languages in India. Hence, they succeed to increase in numbers in INDIA.

In my knowledge Jacobite Syrian Christians have developed this in Honnavar, Karanataka. There qurubana done in local language. I do not know about IOC, probably they would have done well before Jacobite church.

In order to spread the Syrian Orthodox traditions we have to spread Christianity into other States (i.e. not just Malayalees). We have to convert outsiders (i.e. people of other States) and teach gospel in their local language. This is very difficult task. But only if such steps are taken Syrian Orthodox tradition will grow and spread in other states in India. Now we have only Malayalee Syrian Orthodox Church; we should change this system and must learn the administration of Catholic Church & CSI church.

For all the above the CHURCH need money to start institutions in the remote places of INDIA; I am sure both SYRIAN & IOC church are doing it. Here main thing is we have to convert the local people (i.e. people of other states) to Christians & we should give them priesthood and further they shall spread the gospel in their respective states and in long duration we can spread Orthodox Christianity in India and then whole world.

But the bottom line of Christianity is PEACE AND HARMONY TO EXIST ON EARTH; and this should be the theme. Only if CHURCH give LOVE and preach gospel (word of GOD), people of other states will come to our CHURCH. They will feel there is something good which is eternal.

Dear Sam,
Court orders are not just law of land. Those are the verdict of Supreme Court in case of conflicts. Here, basic fundamental of constitution of INDIA in broken i.e. DECOMCRACY. Here, people rule the land & their hard earned properties, not individual. So, problems must be resolved in democracy manner. Here, basic principle of the both churchs is different. So, again CHURCH UNITY is not possible and will be in vain. Again I will stress that the united church of 1958 ruined the church which made to current scenario (i.e. closing down the churches nos increased). Keep election in all disputed churches and divide the land according to the majority & minority. Let the cemetery be common for the both faction. See the example of Cheegari church in Malabar. How peaceful and harmony it is now. This doesn’t mean dividing the house of CHRIST. Jacobite Syrain Church has openly said in all press conferences to settle the issues in amicable manner and to open the closed down churches to conduct the spiritual needs of the parishioners. Why IOC devalokam not accepting it ? Why they want to enforce 1934 church constitution which was uphold by Supreme Court. Even in this constitution it is said Patriarch of Antioach is the Supreme Spiritual Head of the CHURCH. But leave all these, as people have their own faith and opinions, therefore let disputes be closed/end through a democratic manner which is stated above. Else Advocates & Judges shall eat the money for the cases. I am 101% sure cases will not end.

Regards,
GA

Geogy Abraham said...

The future of Christianity in INDIA, Catholic’s are taking care of it very well (i.e. in the current scenario). As they have diversified administrative system. Catholic’s mass & other prayers are translated in Hindi, Tamil, Kanada, Marathi etc..i.e most of all the languages in India. Hence, they succeed to increase in numbers in INDIA.

In my knowledge Jacobite Syrian Christians have developed this in Honnavar, Karanataka. There qurubana done in local language. I do not know about IOC, probably they would have done well before Jacobite church.

In order to spread the Syrian Orthodox traditions we have to spread Christianity into other States (i.e. not just Malayalees). We have to convert outsiders (i.e. people of other States) and teach gospel in their local language. This is very difficult task. But only if such steps are taken Syrian Orthodox tradition will grow and spread in other states in India. Now we have only Malayalee Syrian Orthodox Church; we should change this system and must learn the administration of Catholic Church & CSI church.

For all the above the CHURCH need money to start institutions in the remote places of INDIA; I am sure both SYRIAN & IOC church are doing it. Here main thing is we have to convert the local people (i.e. people of other states) to Christians & we should give them priesthood and further they shall spread the gospel in their respective states and in long duration we can spread Orthodox Christianity in India and then whole world.

But the bottom line of Christianity is PEACE AND HARMONY TO EXIST ON EARTH; and this should be the theme. Only if CHURCH give LOVE and preach gospel (word of GOD), people of other states will come to our CHURCH. They will feel there is something good which is eternal.

Geogy Abraham said...

Dear Sam,
Court orders are not just law of land. Those are the verdict of Supreme Court in case of conflicts. Here, basic fundamental of constitution of INDIA in broken i.e. DECOMCRACY. Here, people rule the land & their hard earned properties, not individual. So, problems must be resolved in democracy manner. Here, basic principle of the both churchs is different. So, again CHURCH UNITY is not possible and will be in vain. Again I will stress that the united church of 1958 ruined the church which made to current scenario (i.e. closing down the churches nos increased). Keep election in all disputed churches and divide the land according to the majority & minority. Let the cemetery be common for the both faction. See the example of Cheegari church in Malabar. How peaceful and harmony it is now. This doesn’t mean dividing the house of CHRIST. Jacobite Syrain Church has openly said in all press conferences to settle the issues in amicable manner and to open the closed down churches to conduct the spiritual needs of the parishioners. Why IOC devalokam not accepting it ? Why they want to enforce 1934 church constitution which was uphold by Supreme Court. Even in this constitution it is said Patriarch of Antioach is the Supreme Spiritual Head of the CHURCH. But leave all these, as people have their own faith and opinions, therefore let disputes be closed/end through a democratic manner which is stated above. Else Advocates & Judges shall eat the money for the cases. I am 101% sure cases will not end.

Regards,
GA

mohanmathew said...

If the Orthodox Church be called IOC, then the present churh in Antioch can be called AOC (ARABIC ORTHODOX CHURCH)

Syriac, THE LITURGY LANGUAGE, i comon to all the Churchs. It was brought to India by ST Thomas, Not any Arab patriarch. They too learn it like we do it here.

Geogy Abraham said...

Devalokam only decided to keep the name as IOC (Indian Orthodox Church). Please look to their website. It is not my invention.
Jacobite are called Syrian Orthodox Church.
Regards,
GA

Jomon said...

Dear Mohan, Please dont expose your foolishness! How can you claim that the syriac liturgy that we use here was brought to India by St. Thomas? Do you know the history of liturgy? Do you know when the liturgy that we are using emerged in Syriac Church? Please study before making comments.
I am not to blame you but to advise you. Sometimes, silence is better than making blunders. May God Bless You.

Jeevan said...

@ Jomon

The Syriac liturgy Mohan Mathew, is talking about is East Syrian Liturgy, and not West Syrian.

East Syrian, is the one used by Assyrian Church, Chaldean Church and our Trichur Mar Aprem Mooken's church.

Until the time of Martoma IV, we used East Syrian Litugy, then after considerable pressure from the Antiochians(West) syrians, we gradually shifted to WEST Syrian, which is used now.

I know why you couldnt understand what Mohan Mathew had mentioned, because jacobite church never teaches the proper history from AD52 till Connen Cross Oath. We NEVER had connections to Antioch from the beginning, it started from the time of Saint Abdul Jaleel Bava and got stronger during the time of Marthoma IV.

You may read secular history books to understand the history of Indian Christianity properly. The association with Antioch is probabaly 300-400 years old.


Read this (written by a hungarian professor and researcher)

http://www.srite.de/index?id=2&cikk=84#(56)a

Syrian dosent always mean Antioch,
it also refers to Assyrian (Persian) with no connection to Antioch.

Before Connen Cross Oath, India was an Eccelastial Province of Persia.

See this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_(East_Syrian_Ecclesiastical_Province)

Hope it clarifies

Vayaliparamban said...

Antioch came into the world first. All in the world is because of Antioch and if anybody tries to give less importance to Antioch will have serious problem. See the condition of IOC. There is no future of Christianity in India, but there is future for Antiochians in India. So why don't we discuss about that. How to be part of Antiochya. How to bring more people into Antiochya and how to make money on behalf of Antiochya.
Jeevichallum Marichallum Antiochya matram mathiyenikku.

mohanmathew said...

Dear Jomon

Your there was no Syric or worship before? SYRIAC, is aform of Aramaci which becaem teh language o fliturgy in the East jut like Lain inteh West or Sanskrit in India.

It is not the property of anyone particularly.
Sir, So you are mistaken when you believe that Syriac was given to by Antioch.

Syriac was here even before MALAYALAM which was derived from ancient Tamil around AD 800. It was a slow evolution fro Malayalam, our mothertounge

Read: Kerala Charithram by Padmabhushan Sreedhara menon and read about Syrian Christians of Kerala. They had relations with Persian Church started very long back. (Persian Church also was found by St Thomas)
Read for yourself
Thanks Jomon

Jeevan said...

Dear Jomon and All Jacobite Brothers,

Please read what the Arthat Padiyola has to say ( This was in 1806):

http://arthatcathedral.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=51

Rome'il ninno, Babel'il ninno( Babylonia-Persia-Assyria-East Syriac) Antiochia'il (West Syriac)ninno mattu vere paradeshathu ninno varunna yathoru metranmarudem updeshavum nadappukalum oru nallum vittu vazhazhi nadakathe, nammude marthoma sleehayude purvika vishwasavum chattangalum anusarichu nadannu kollumaru sammadichu .......

These lines are clear evidences for anyone who questions the Throne of Marthoma Sleeha.

For those who say that throne of St.Thomas is an invention, kindly get reminded that, this oath was taken by the UNDIVIDED ARTHAT church members...

Jomon said...

Dear Mohan and other friends, You have thouroughly misinterpreted my posting. I have objected the idea of Mr. Mohan that ST. THOMAS BROUGHT SYRIAN LITURGY TO INDIA.
I DONT THINK THAT ST. THOMAS BROUGHT EITHER EASTERN OR WESTERN SYRIAC LITURGY TO INDIA. Do you have any manuscripts (at least tiny pieces) of SYRIAN LITURGY BROUGHT TO INDIA BY ST. THOMAS IN AD 52 preserved anywhere in the world? DO YOU HAVE MANUSCRIPTS OF SYRIAN LITURGY (EITHER EASTERN OR WESTERN SYRIAC) PRESERVED ANYWEHRE IN THE WORLD THAT IS USED AROUND AD 52?
Without historical facts, dont ever try to make claimes that St. Thomas brought Eastern or Western Liturgy to India.
I still want to tell you to study the history not of Syric language but of Syrian liturgy (eastern and western). Both of them emerged long after ST. THOMAS.
I think this clarifies my position.

MalankaraSyriacOrthodox said...

After reading this blog, do you think peace loving non-believer will want to be a Malankara Nazrani. Unless we shine with the light of Jesus and share his love, no body will find our faith attractive. Who wants to join a faith, where the core elements of the faith is 1934 constitution, 1958 Supreme Court judgement, 1970 Kalpana from H.H Yakub III, 1974 Metropolitan Ordinations and the 1995 Supreme Court verdict, 2002 constitution etc.

When will Faith, Love and Peace be more important to Malankara Nazrani's then the Church will naturally attract the faithful to it.

Ravi George said...

ACCEPTABILITY IN INDIA

If the Patriarch of is the Head of the Orthodox Church in India (according to the 1934 Constitution of the Malankara Church) then that clause should be AMENDED by the Malankara Association. AN INDIAN AS THE VISIBLE HEAD OF THE CHURCH is very important for gaining acceptability of all Indians.

QUESTION: IS there any Orthodox Church in the world which is under the territory of another country?

2. Why should Arab Christians have any kind of HIGH STATUS in Christianity compared to Indians here?

LESSON FROM BIBLE HISTORY

We should also learn a bit from about Arabs from the Bible. They are natural descendants of the Father of the Believers, ABRAHAM, through an Egyptian maid of Sarah. The Bible says her name is Hagar. Hence Arabs are not the promised children of Abraham. Arabs are Ishmaelites, not Israelites.

Whereas, in Malankara, we have the promised children of Abraham who are Israelites. Now let us see how.

Centuries back when St Thomas came to India in search of the lost children of Israel as commanded by LORD CHRIST. There were children of Israel who had settled in Malabar. They were the first Christians and were called NASRANIS. Their descendants are still in Malankara. So Biblically we have true descendants of ABHRAHAM as promised by God.

If the Jacobites are talking about SUPERORITY of spirituality, let them know that in Malankara we have FAR SUPERIOR CHRISTIANS. (I explained this because Arab Christians generally think they are a superior race compared to those in Malankara and some Jacobites think that they are subordinates of Arabs)

But any kind of RACISM is VERY BAD. So let us agree that ARABS and NASRANIS are BROTHERS and EQUAL.

Then, why should one RULE over the other? Antioch Church wants Christians in Malankara to be under them, but not ready to consider them as equal. What is the meaning of this UNVERSAL Church when they cannot give equal rights to the majority in India? (Jacobite always clamour for MAJORITY. Why can’t they have the same theory applied to Antioch?

It is important to remember that all Orthodox churches are National and it is important for Orthodox Church in India to be so. If the Jacobite brothers do not understand it now, they will regret it later.

Whether some of our Antioch fans in India like it or not, eventually there will be NONE with Antioch. Most probably Antioch Church will disappear even before that happens. (as National Geographic Magazine reports.)

Ravi George said...

ACCEPTABILITY IN INDIA

If the Patriarch of is the Head of the Orthodox Church in India (according to the 1934 Constitution of the Malankara Church) then that clause should be AMENDED by the Malankara Association. AN INDIAN AS THE VISIBLE HEAD OF THE CHURCH is very important for gaining acceptability of all Indians.

QUESTION: IS there any Orthodox Church in the world which is under the territory of another country?

2. Why should Arab Christians have any kind of HIGH STATUS in Christianity compared to Indians here?

LESSON FROM BIBLE HISTORY

We should also learn a bit from about Arabs from the Bible. They are natural descendants of the Father of the Believers, ABRAHAM, through an Egyptian maid of Sarah. The Bible says her name is Hagar. Hence Arabs are not the promised children of Abraham. Arabs are Ishmaelites, not Israelites.

Whereas, in Malankara, we have the promised children of Abraham who are Israelites. Now let us see how.

Centuries back when St Thomas came to India in search of the lost children of Israel as commanded by LORD CHRIST. There were children of Israel who had settled in Malabar. They were the first Christians and were called NASRANIS. Their descendants are still in Malankara. So Biblically we have true descendants of ABHRAHAM as promised by God.

If the Jacobites are talking about SUPERORITY of spirituality, let them know that in Malankara we have FAR SUPERIOR CHRISTIANS. (I explained this because Arab Christians generally think they are a superior race compared to those in Malankara and some Jacobites think that they are subordinates of Arabs)

But any kind of RACISM is VERY BAD. So let us agree that ARABS and NASRANIS are BROTHERS and EQUAL.

Then, why should one RULE over the other? Antioch Church wants Christians in Malankara to be under them, but not ready to consider them as equal. What is the meaning of this UNVERSAL Church when they cannot give equal rights to the majority in India? (Jacobite always clamour for MAJORITY. Why can’t they have the same theory applied to Antioch?

It is important to remember that all Orthodox churches are National and it is important for Orthodox Church in India to be so. If the Jacobite brothers do not understand it now, they will regret it later.

Whether some of our Antioch fans in India like it or not, eventually there will be NONE with Antioch. Most probably Antioch Church will disappear even before that happens. (as National Geographic Magazine reports.)

Ravi George said...

Eldhos talks a lot of non-sense

DOES JESUS BELONG TO ANY PARTICULAR NATION?

If Jesus is NOT Indian, He is no Arab. Then, He is neither a Jew nor an American…

If Jesus is Indian, HE IS equally ARAB, HE IS JEW, HE IS EUROPEAN, HE IS …

(Remember Jesus Himself told He was before ABRAHAM)

WHERAS, Antioch Patriarch (I heard there are 4 or 5 persons who calls themselves as ANTIOCH PATRARCH; Even Malankara Church COULD HAVE EASILY CREATED another Antioch patriarch there just like Patriarch created a rebel Catholicate here, but we DID NOT because we still expect everything to be resolved peacefully and also because the Antioch Church is to feeble to suffer another shock) is an Arab who is 100 per cent human, NOT GOD. So please STOP your comparison between LORD CHRIST and Human HH Patriarch.

Of course, we too can have only a Human as the Head of the Church, but the HEAD SHOULD BE AN INDIAN (for Indians).

INDIANS HAVE NO PROBLEMS INACCEPTING JESUS because for Hindus JESUS is already a God among many other gods.

Ravi George said...

Some of our Jacobite friends are of the view that The Church should be cut into TWO, now.

Let us wait. Let us see what will happen. A divide Church will have only one fourth strength. It is only a Jacobite strategy is to divide QUICKLY. Orthodox believes that the wounds will be HEALED SLOWLY. This has worked very well. So many have realised the TRUTH and is now standing up for UNITY. (The visible example was the Always meet on August 8th)

You know Jacobite leader get people only when they raise emotions of FIGHT. Do they think they can get people if peace comes? For example: How does Viswasasamrakshakan get a few readers?


Cases will not prolong for long as some people fear. Because of many reasons, I will not go into the details as the dissuasions will be pulled away from THE FUTURE OF CHRISTINITY IN INDIA.

To Sum Up

1. FREEDOM OF THE CHURCH IS IMPORTANT FOR GROWTH and ACEEPTABIITY


2. We could maintain relationship on EQUAL terms wit all Orthodox Churches including Antioch.

3. Since the Antioch Church is in trouble now, we SHOULD IMMEDIATELY help them, but never enslave them.

4. Being the largest of all the Syrian Communities, we INDIANS should take initiative to LEAD the Syrian Community all over the world. But we should ensure that all the churches remain independent and FREE. I think only INDIANS can do this now.

Reni said...

IT IS JACOBITES WHO DISHONORED HH PATRIARCH IN INDIA.

They arranged the presentation of DAS CAPITAL from CPM leader Pinaryi Vijayan and made HH PATRIARCH announce that ALL JACOBITES CAN WORK IN CPI(M).

How many of you started working with CPI (M), obeying ORDERS of HH Patriarch?

It was not a Kalpana sent by post. It was DIRECTLY TOLD IN FRONT Of YOU People!


Enthu vrithikedum jayikkan vendi cheyyumenethinu thelivaanu ithu. ATHODE THEERNALLO THOMAS THIRUMENIYUDE GLAMOUR!

Reni said...

2002 Bharanaghatana of the Jacobite church is against the sprit of Orthodoxy. It is also against ecclesiology. It cannot be considered a CHRISTIAN SABHA Bharanaghatana

Read interview with Thomas Paul Rambachan in Georgian Mirror (July-Sep 2010)

Mathew said...

Jeevan and Mohan....

Even the east syriac liturgy was compiled by St.Addai and st.Mari and not St. Thomas.. That was not brought to malankara by St. Thomas. Even the liturgy of the church of east as today was developed only in the 7th century... It is not even 100 percent St.Addais liturgy.. Ini malankaraykku St.Thomas oru prathyeka liturgy koduthenkil athoru bhayankara sambhavam thanne..

Syriac was given by Antioch... Because Edessa where the syriac language develped belonged to Antioch... Syriac was the aramiac dialect of Edessa..

Kaaryankal padichittu vennam ezhuthan.

Ningal arthat padiyola maathrame kandullu alle ? Mavelikkara, Mulanthuruthy padiyola pinne Anjilimoottil ittithomman kathanar parambil chandy kathanaarkku ezhuthiya ezhutthu, Valiya Mor Divannasios Claudius Buchanan odu paranja kaaryamn, India kaaran Joseph Romile mar papayodu paranja kaaryam, Udayamperoor synod ile decrees ithokke koottiyiruthi vaayichittu enittu vilayiruthu ee sabhayude poorvika vishwasam enthayirunnu ennu..

Daivam Nalla thiricharivu nalkatte..

Ee sabha tharkkam nirthi engane Indiayil christianity de future nannakam ennu aarenkilum parayu...

sam said...

Dear Geogy Abraham

1-

You Are Saying IOC are after all the Cross! You Said IOC are not Willing to Peace Initiative discussions! IOC are Greedy! Jacobites Lost property or Churches due to 1958 peace/reconciliation! Now There Two seperate Churches in Malankara and unity cannot take place! Democracy is there in India and democracy should be followed for sharing disputed Churches/properties and Spreading Christianity in India there should be Peace and Harmony In Earth
Your Political approach/view of handling affairs of Malankara church feud analysis does not contain any truth at all
Malankara Church is not instituted or founded by Antiochean fathers .The Malankara Nazranis were there before under one umbrella before Europeans came in India. After the arrival of Europeans problems started first with Latin Catholics (Portuguese) then Church mission society of England etc. After the oath of Coonan Cross, we had connections from Church in Antioch and the British people called us Jacobites!
However the Church In Malankara followed the liturgy of west syriac from 18th century.
The 1st and 2nd samudaya case in Malankara church was filed By Antiochean Patriarchs and their supporters in Malankara! MOSC had to struggle a lot underwent various trials! Finally the supreme court of India gave the verdict which was victory to MOSC.
Then Antioch Patriarch himself came for reconciliation and peace. If They did not come for such reconciliation, they might had lost everything in Malankara!
MOSC did not start the present problems and cases. The Antioch patriarch started the problem! Then He acted against the canons and Constitution of MOSC in 1970's
It is not IOC, who acted against Patriarch of Syria. His infamous bull and heretic teachings were Anti-orthodox!

sam said...

Geogy Abraham,

2-

The Present Jacobites formed a Constitution in2002 in order to save the churches and properties that they have now! The Jacobites leaders requested the court for conducting a MSCA (Malankara Suriani Christiani Association) under the court observer. When they realized that they are not going to win or they will not gain anything from such meeting immediately formed a new society in2002. From 2002 they are separate. Therefore this new church cannot go back and claim any property administered by MOSC constitution of 1934!
What is the basis of your democracy here? Before 2002 Jacobite leaders did not make any press conference for peace/harmony!
What kind of Democracy your mother church in Antioch Follow? All church properties belong to Patriarch himself! In U.S.A the Jacobite Bishop of Malankara is directly under control of Syrian Patriarch in Antioch! All church properties and clergy in Malankara Jacobites are under the control of Antioch Patriarch!
There Is No democracy in Both Constitution of Jacobites in Malankaras well as In Syrian orthodox church!
When these Two constitutions were presented here for discussion no Jacobites did not respond.
Here In your response of Future of Christianity in India, you did not make any valuable suggestions!
You said there should be peace and harmony in the earth as well as democracy in sharing disputed Churches In Malankara!
First of all remove the thorn in our eyes then help remove the speck in your brother’s!
Spreading Christianity in India does not require peace and harmony between the 2 churches at all! The Protestants, Catholics and C.N.I & C.S. I churches are doing mission work in India. Especially in North India there are persecution by Hindu fundamentalists those churches are facing! Do they require the peace and harmony between the IOC and the Jacobites?
MOSC did not encroach or try to take by force any property belonging to Jacobites Syrian Church! These are purely allegations! The MOSC do not partake in undemocratic deeds or actions!
The master mind of allegations leveled against MOSC are playing politics in Malankara! In another words The Wolf is pretending to be the lamb by his cries/tears for getting sympathy of other people living in Kerala!
Press conference is not place of calling peace mission as there is no fight/war in church! When Armenian Catholicos visited Malankara He tried to take the initiative and why did Jacobites withdraw themselves by siding with Political parties? The Hierarchy Of Jacobite church played many things.
The Diplomacy/trick of Modern Chanakyan is well known to ordinary people in Malankara!
My dear Jacobites, It is Not MOSC who is an hindrance for evangelization of your Church!
St.Peter/St.Paul/and all apostles preached gospel not in their home region /locality, but other places among gentiles where they had to undergo lot of opposition /persecution etc from all nations/head of states/roman government! At time of Jesus Birth ,the whole of Israel was Under Roman regime. Yet John Baptist did his work!
Geogy, Please read Mathew 5:40,and try to follow that then peace and harmony will be there!

sam said...

Dear Geogy Abraham

2-

The Present Jacobites formed a Constitution in2002 in order to save the churches and properties that they have now! The Jacobites leaders requested the court for conducting a MSCA (Malankara Suriani Christiani Association) under the court observer. When they realized that they are not going to win or they will not gain anything from such meeting immediately formed a new society in2002. From 2002 they are separate. Therefore this new church cannot go back and claim any property administered by MOSC constitution of 1934!
What is the basis of your democracy here? Before 2002 Jacobite leaders did not make any press conference for peace/harmony!
What kind of Democracy your mother church in Antioch Follow? All church properties belong to Patriarch himself! In U.S.A the Jacobite Bishop of Malankara is directly under control of Syrian Patriarch in Antioch! All church properties and clergy in Malankara Jacobites are under the control of Antioch Patriarch!
There Is No democracy in Both Constitution of Jacobites in Malankaras well as In Syrian orthodox church!
When these Two constitutions were presented here for discussion no Jacobites did not respond.
Here In your response of Future of Christianity in India, you did not make any valuable suggestions!
You said there should be peace and harmony in the earth as well as democracy in sharing disputed Churches In Malankara!
First of all remove the thorn in our eyes then help remove the speck in your brother’s!
Spreading Christianity in India does not require peace and harmony between the 2 churches at all! The Protestants, Catholics and C.N.I & C.S. I churches are doing mission work in India. Especially in North India there are persecution by Hindu fundamentalists those churches are facing! Do they require the peace and harmony between the IOC and the Jacobites?
MOSC did not encroach or try to take by force any property belonging to Jacobites Syrian Church! These are purely allegations! The MOSC do not partake in undemocratic deeds or actions!
The master mind of allegations leveled against MOSC are playing politics in Malankara! In another words The Wolf is pretending to be the lamb by his cries/tears for getting sympathy of other people living in Kerala!
Press conference is not place of calling peace mission as there is no fight/war in church! When Armenian Catholicos visited Malankara He tried to take the initiative and why did Jacobites withdraw themselves by siding with Political parties? The Hierarchy Of Jacobite church played many things.
The Diplomacy/trick of Modern Chanakyan is well known to ordinary people in Malankara!
My dear Jacobites, It is Not MOSC who is an hindrance for evangelization of your Church!
St.Peter/St.Paul/and all apostles preached gospel not in their home region /locality, but other places among gentiles where they had to undergo lot of opposition /persecution etc from all nations/head of states/roman government! At time of Jesus Birth ,the whole of Israel was Under Roman regime. Yet John Baptist did his work!
Geogy, Please read Mathew 5:40,and try to follow that then peace and harmony will be there!

Jeevan said...

@Mathew

I have never told, the East Syriac liturgy was brought to India by St.Thomas or it was created by St.Thomas.

Also I did never mention anywhere, about any liturgy propounded by St.Thomas. Read my posting clearly.

All I had mentioned was the usage of East Syriac which was prevalent in Malankara before Connen Cross Oath.

Mathew Said, “Syriac was given by Antioch... Because Edessa where the syriac language develped belonged to Antioch... Syriac was the aramiac dialect of Edessa..”

I am talking about East Syrian liturgy not East Syrian language.

Mathew said, “Kaaryankal padichittu vennam ezhuthan.”

Chettan, kiiiirvanam muzhakunnathalle , karyamgal onnum parayunathu ithu vare kettilla…. Kure kalamayittu kelkuuva chettante dialogue,” charitra botham venam”, athu venam , ithu venam etc etc …

Moolayil achathe muulayillatha kadhakal vayikkunathayirukkum charitram bodham.

Mathew said, “Anjilimoottil ittithomman kathanar parambil chandy kathanaarkku ezhuthiya ezhutthu, Valiya Mor Divannasios Claudius Buchanan odu paranja kaaryamn, India kaaran Joseph Romile mar papayodu paranja kaaryam, Udayamperoor synod ile decrees ithokke koottiyiruthi vaayichittu enittu vilayiruthu ee sabhayude poorvika vishwasam enthayirunnu ennu.. “


Ee parazha karyangal okke nigalude duukili historians allathe secular ayitulla alkarude enkilum booksil page sahitham kanichu thannal njan vishwashikkam..

What ever you say, if are true, then they are real evidences against Syro Malabar historians. I don’t want the evidences of Mavelikara and Mulanturuthy, I know the background of those two.

But prove all the other things that you have just said about from secular historian’s books.

Remember I am talking about connections of Antioch and India before Connen Cross Oath. If you have any bring it.

Mathew Said, “Ee sabha tharkkam nirthi engane Indiayil christianity de future nannakam ennu aarenkilum parayu...”

Aa agraham undayal mathi …..

mohanmathew said...

I DREAM OF A DAY WE ALL CHRISTIANS OF SYRIAN TRADITION SIT TOGETHER AND GIVE A SEND OFF TO ALL THE FOREIGN NATIONALS CHRISTIANS MOSTLY BECAUSE THY NEED TO REPAIR THE DAMAGES AT HOME

These include: Romans, Antioch, Anglicans, Americans and Germans

mohanmathew said...

SYRIAC BROUUGHT TO INDIA BY ANTIOC?

Biggest joke

When did Antioch people came to India? Who were here before?

Read the history of Syriac language in the authneitc books.

Read MALABAR MANUAL (Published by Mathrubhoomi)
Kerala Charithram by Sreedhara Menon (DC Books)

Reni said...

@Mohan

How long can illegal foreign dominations continue in our land?

Just like political freedom was was won, SPIRITUAL FREEDOM will come. You can be CONFIDENT that day is NOT VERY FAR.

I think we should prepare a peaceful masterplan for our Nation.

We had very good relationship with all the communities from the very beginniing. Narrow-minded Foreigners, who were here with conquering plans, spoiled all the good relations. REBUILDING RELATIONSHIP IS A MAJOR TASK.

1. FOCUS ON HOME: We should begin with politely asking all the foreigners to FOCUS on their on land as MATTERS ARE WORSE THERE.

2. WE should get rid of this foreign agenda of conversion.

3. We should project an Indian model Christian life which is acceptble to all INDIANS.

4. It is God who will bring peope to us not our greed. That's how Church should grow. Transparent in all matters and loved by people. The change of heart should come from people wilfully initiated by LORD, not by our greed as practised by the foreign churches who enslaved us.


5. Most importantly, we should NOT work with the intention of CONVERTING anyone. Live as a good Christian, a good citizen who Loves this land of our forefathers and propagate FAITH, HOPE AND LOVE as Our Indian Constitution permits. It is God who brings people (if HE feels it is ok).

6. Always obey the law of the Land. Go beyond RESPECT and pour out love to people of other faiths.

7 Trust GOD ALMIGHTY

sam said...

Dear Mathew
Don't try to confuse people here by your Antiochean Liturgy. In Malankara Church Antiochean Liturgy came in after A.D.1800 (west Syriac).Prior to Coonan Cross Oath We Had Persian Liturgy(East Syriac) which we got from Persian Church not from Antioch! Arch Bishop Manessis of Goa (Portugheese Methran) destroyed all our East syrian Liturgy By Fire before Coonan Cross Oath!The Persian Liturgy not orignated in Antioch!
Church in Malankara had early connections with Church in Persia!
Dr.M .Kurian Thomas has already given the history of West Syriac Liturgy in malankra in MTV Blogs!
The Persian Liturgy was in use In Malankara bt 5th centuary! Mar Adai,And Mar Mari "Kramam" of Liturgy were in use in Persian (Eddessa is in Persia)church from AD 300.The robes/dress of Priests and the Liturgy of Jacob(Yakkoobinte Thaksa)Came in Malankara during Sakralla Mafriyana's Visit in Malankara during1761.The complte West Syrian Liturgy (the present system)came in Malankara after the Covenant(Udambidi)between Dionaysius Malankara Methra politan(after Marthoma V)and Mar Ivanios Of Antioch in A.D.1788 at Mavelikkara Puthiya Kavu.

Ravi George said...

@Sam
They will only believe what has been taught by Antiochian fathers. They will not read books of indedpendent Kerala historians like Sreedhara Menon.

These Antochian leaders themselves have failed to preach in their own land. How could they teach here when they could not do it there? Avide Dinner kazhicchu kazhiyunna padangal kaananamenkil Malankara Syriac Voice-l poyaal mathi. Simhaasanam ottumikklum theerarayi.... Dinner with kings and royals when the church is disappaearing...Valiay abhimaanamaayi website-il ittirikkunnu...

Jomon said...

DEAR FRIENDS, YOUR POSTINGS CLAIM THAT ASSYRIAN PERSIAN CHURCH IS THE MOTHER CHURCH OF INDIAN CHURCH. IF SO, HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THE FUTURE OF INDIAN CHURCH IS UNDER THE H H CATHOLICOSE OF THE EAST SITTING ON THE THRONE OF ST. THOMAS? AS YOU CLAIM, SINCE THE MOTHER CHURCH OF INDIAN CHURCH WAS PERSIAN CHURCH,YOU SHOULD TRY TO UNITE UNDER THE CHALDEAN CHURCH OF THE EAST.
I THINK THIS WILL DO JUSTICE TO YOUR CLAIMES.

sam said...

Dear Jeevan
Leave this guy Mathew, he does not know how liturgy came in from where and who were behind forming liturgy for the early church.He says Eddessa was in Antioch! Does he ever tried to learn History?(Eddessa is place outside roman territory/regime) They were taught by their fathers that only Syriac language is official language of Lityurgy,or it is the language christ spoke etc.Jesus Christ used to speak ,hebrew,aramic et etc. In Pentacost,the disciples spoke in one language which was understood by the Multitude of people assembled there in own mother tongue/or in their regional/local language!
The holy fathers we remember in H.Qurbana 5th thubden are not only Syrians/antiocheans,they are from various places such as alexandrea,rome and costantinaples!
These people(Jacobites/antioch) now in friendship with Roman catholics,because supremacy of St.Peter as well as to have their history about malankara for self existence and self glory!
Even St.Peter did not go with any Liturgy to preach gospel!The People Who Ordained St.Paul(saul)and Barnabas are not St.James(Bishop of Jerusalem) or St.Peter!(acts13:1-2).Those who did the ordination were prophets and teachers in early church.
Saul And Barnabas ,who came from Jerusalem,taught the Antiochean Christians,among other things the true worship(acts11:22-26).Liturgy worship did not originate in Antioch!

george cherian said...

The future of Christianity in India is not good, if all the different fractions (other than Catholics, who are united and have accepted liberation theology and helped public with education & health) are always fighting each other. This is exactly what other parties in India (BJP)want.We will destroy ourself.We should remember that we are a minority in a Hindu/Muslim country. Our culture is Hindism and only our faith is christianity and we have adopted so many things from Hinduism (Minu or Chali in weddings). In no other christian church you will see tying minnu in wedding. It is good move and it demonstrates that we can live in harmony with other religions but surprisingly not with other christians. The same old repeated commentary blaming other christian fractions (complaining not being constructive or keep your mouth shut etc) at this site by certain people will create more fractions, and finally destroy the orthodox church. Only few of your children will follow your fighting attitude and most of the intellegent ones will run away from a church that wants to fight all the time. Our life is short in this world. Most of our Bishops who appear at this malankaraorthodox church site do not talk about peace (because it is not politically correct), except one I heard recently, Yakob Mar Elias at Brahmavar talking to children (I don't care which group he belongs to. We also have several organizations like "Servants of Cross" etc, started in 1950s to help poor people. We are not taking advantage of these institutions to help others. We can show other religions in India that we can play a positive role (other than going to court & making lawyers rich!)in our state, country and the world. Our leadership in the Orthodox church can do this, but most of them think that their role is only to collect money.
The Antiochian Jacobite Patriarch is doing a better job for the future. They are not interested in the future of the church in Kerala. They know that the Indian church will disappear & the money from the Indian church will stop coming (even the Indian Govt could prevent it). So the Patriarch took a smart young guy from Perumbavoor to Damascus, trained him there and made him the youngest Arch Bishop to look after Malayalees in North America. He is Mor Titus Yeldho, a well spoken modern Bishop who speaks well, only 40 years old and conduct Qurubana in excellent tune, available at You-tube. If you listen to him once, you want to hear it every sunday, like listening to an opera. He is directly under Antiochian Patriarch and the money collected from these churchs will go directly to Patriarch. This is an excellent move for the future of the Kerala Jacobites.The main role of Our orthodox churchs in North America is to collect funds to send to India to continue court cases.
Well, you can continue fighting your superiority and who is right etc while other religions in India will flurish and laugh at you and follow your failure. India never had a christian Prime minister or a President. India will never have one if Indian (kerala) Christians behave this way. Most of the people who comment at this site are always fighting each other and doing more damage than good to Christianity in India. Instead of wasting their time, they could help some poor and sick people by volunteering and social work activities. This is what Christ has preached. You should find some way to unite all the fractions and live in peace. This will be 'constructive' and may help the growth of Christianity in India.

sampariyarathu said...

Dear MTV Team&Viewers
For Future Christanity in India,as MOSC/IOC,we don't need any Support from Syrian orthothox church/Antiochean Church.MOSC constituition Give the Antiochean Partriarchs as Spiritual supreme Heirachy subject to other Rules/bilaws.This laws/Rules are applicable to everyone and are bound to keep them irrespective of their title/position.
MOSC leadership now actually not conentrating/giving much importance to mission work!Here our leadership fails. The Bishops are overseers and they should have a vision and mission!
Our Seminaries should also give priority to Mission work,as their should be some qouta of seminary students for this purpose. What ever missions we have in north India, we should have Seminary trained priests/or laity trained from varius mission training fields should be there!
L/L Pathrose Mar Osthasthios "Sleeba daasa Samooham"
should be reorganised and regenerated!Like wise St.Paul Mission training in Mavelikkara also to be regenerated!All seminary trained priests must work in Missionfields minimum two years!or prior to their ordinations as priests,all deacons should work in varius mission fields of our church!
There should be two Bishops in Charge of Mission fields one for south Indian State Doiceses another one for North Indian state Dioceses!There should be fund kept for this purpose and every year,the Budget should make allocation.generation of this funds!
In The Last two years MOSC made 14 Bishop cosecrations! This Forteen consecrations took place at different times and the amount spent for such consecrations and Associations(managing Comiitte) meetings could have reuced if Our Heirarchy Had a clear Vision and plan for future!
The Whole attiude of our Church including both laity and clergy also need to be changed!Without that Furure of Christianity in India will be bleak!

Mathew said...

Dear Sam,

When Geogy said that we lost church and properties because of the 1958 drama.. it is one hundred percent true..Kodathi vazhi ningalkku oru pullum kittillayirunnu.. Pakshe samadhanathinde peru paranju njangalkku maatramaayi undaayirunna edaVAKALIL kayari koodi.. njangalde edavakalil ningalodu anukoolamulla oru njaanjool vighaditha vibhagathe valarthiyedukkan patti.. you got foothold in dioceses like Ankamali, Kandanad, Kochi and malabar dioceses. In the outside kerala diocese, the churches built by the efforts of both the factions came under your control.. Delhi and Bangalore parishes are the best examples. Njangalde sabhasthanamaaya Thrikkunnathu seminary njangalkku nashtapettu. enittu naanamille ippol kannadachu iruttakkan.. Kodathi vidhi vazhi oru dashum ningalkku kittillayirunnu... 1995 vidhi kazhinju 15 varsham kazhinjittum ningalkku ethra pallikalil kayari koodan patti.. athinde case 2002 il kazhinjittum pinneyum ella kurishum ningalkku vennam ennu paranju supreme kodathiyil kayari erangi nadakkuvalle ?

Malankara church was not found by Antiochean fathers.. But whatever liturgy you are using today, whatever theology you are following and whatever sacraments you are having were given here by the Anteochean fathers. It was the Antiochean fathers and only them who sustained the orthodox faith here..

We did have connections with the church in Antioch even before the Koonen Kurishu oath.. you want proof... read Panicker achens thesis work for MA ( at the time of writing he was pet of vattasseri and the reference material were provided to him by Mammen Mapillai ).

1958 SC verdict was based on technicality.. the court observed that because Kallasseri bava sent notice kalpana to alll the churches and St. Valiya thirimeni did not do so, Kallasseri bava s association was valid and the decisions taken therein. Athreyullu..

Mathew said...

Dear Sam,

When Geogy said that we lost church and properties because of the 1958 drama.. it is one hundred percent true..Kodathi vazhi ningalkku oru pullum kittillayirunnu.. Pakshe samadhanathinde peru paranju njangalkku maatramaayi undaayirunna edaVAKALIL kayari koodi.. njangalde edavakalil ningalodu anukoolamulla oru njaanjool vighaditha vibhagathe valarthiyedukkan patti.. you got foothold in dioceses like Ankamali, Kandanad, Kochi and malabar dioceses. In the outside kerala diocese, the churches built by the efforts of both the factions came under your control.. Delhi and Bangalore parishes are the best examples. Njangalde sabhasthanamaaya Thrikkunnathu seminary njangalkku nashtapettu. enittu naanamille ippol kannadachu iruttakkan.. Kodathi vidhi vazhi oru dashum ningalkku kittillayirunnu... 1995 vidhi kazhinju 15 varsham kazhinjittum ningalkku ethra pallikalil kayari koodan patti.. athinde case 2002 il kazhinjittum pinneyum ella kurishum ningalkku vennam ennu paranju supreme kodathiyil kayari erangi nadakkuvalle ?

Mathew said...

( sam contd )

Malankara church was not found by Antiochean fathers.. But whatever liturgy you are using today, whatever theology you are following and whatever sacraments you are having were given here by the Anteochean fathers. It was the Antiochean fathers and only them who sustained the orthodox faith here..

We did have connections with the church in Antioch even before the Koonen Kurishu oath.. you want proof... read Panicker achens thesis work for MA ( at the time of writing he was pet of vattasseri and the reference material were provided to him by Mammen Mapillai ).

1958 SC verdict was based on technicality.. the court observed that because Kallasseri bava sent notice kalpana to alll the churches and St. Valiya thirimeni did not do so, Kallasseri bava s association was valid and the decisions taken therein. Athreyullu..

aa kodathi vidhikku valiya sathyam uyarthezhunetta parivesham onnum kodukkenda..

1958 il sabha yojichillenkil oru pullum sambhavikillayirunnu. Ithokke metran kakshikalodu paranjal chilarenkilum oralpam kolmayir kollum..

Mathew said...

( sam contd..,.)

second split did not start in 1970 after HH Yakoub III's Kalpana.. It started well before after the demise of Vayaliparambil thirumeni when the coccus in devalokam started to raise their head slowly.. You want details... start a seperate blog.. I will be more than happy to give you the chronoogical development of events.

We formed a constitution in 2002 to have a better administrative structure. We had tried earlier during Paulose II bavas tenure but you all managed to get a stay against it. So this time we were careful. The churches are joining the 2002 constituion because they want to remain in the faith their forefathers handed over to them and the oath that their forefathers toook at different times in the history of our church.

We did request a court observer.. But later when this obserevr became a proxy of Devalokam coccus, we boycoted.. You want details.. again I will be more than happy to give to you with proof.. but it will be very lengthy... if interested I willsend it to your mail.

We are not claiming any property governed by 1934 metran kakshi Bible. Ningal veruthe thannalum njagalkku ini athu venda.. India yile orotta kodathi polum ithuvare parish churches 34 il metran kakshi vedapustakam anusaric hu bhatrikkanam ennu paranjittila.. so aa pacha kallam iniyenkilum niruthuka.

I pity you when you make claims like all properties in malankara is under the patriarch.. Inganathe statements mathi ningade vivaravum arivum vilayiruthan,...

Mathew said...

No valuable suggestions have come in the discussion regarding the future of christianity because the blog description tself is in that manner and the subsequent postings have added fuel to fire..When we respond to your meaningless allegations, you come blaming us for not giving valuable suggestions...

You say metran kakshis did not try to encroach or take by force our churches .. Do one thing.. take a car and travel once from Kolenchery to Moovattupuzha.. On the way look on either side of the road.. You have a few examples there.. have you seen the old cheengeri church ? the old kundara church ? just a few examples..There was a case filed by metran kakshis .. it was to enter our churches under police protection.. In 2002, your old catholicose planned a rally and march to offer " dhoopa prarthana " at manarcad church... ithinokkeytannu encroach ennu parayunnathu.. Kandanad, trissur bhadrasanathikle pallikalile prashnam enthannenno ? motham idavakakaaril 2-3 veettukaar ningade partyil koodi ( oru mudiayana putran kaarannam ) .. enittu avarde avakaashavaadam palli avarudethannennu.. ithanno metran kakshi dictionaryile democracy ?

We did never withdraw from any mediation.. It was your church which did so.. In 2002 govt had created a ministerial level commission.. you withdrew giving lame excuses..The other church heads in malankara proposed mediation... you rejected the offer.. even People like Sugathakumari and others proposed their mediation ... your church rejected.. for you it is only ' kodathi ' 'kodathi' 40 varsham case paranjittu enthenkilum nediyo ? njangade chila pallikalil nuzhanju kayariyathum allatha pallikal poottichathumallathe.

The truth is we are not anymore bothered about you.. just leave us alone.

Mathew said...

Dear Jeevan,

I took another guys name along with your name.. i was replying to a common subject raised by both of you in one posting.

Mathew said...

Dear Jeevan,

Moolayilachandethallatha proof thannal sammadikavo ningalkku thettu patti ennu ?

Mathew said...

Dear Sam,

Ee persian liturgy ennnu muthala ivide vannathu ennukoodi onnu parayamo ? ariyan aagrahamullathukonda. Malankara sabha early connections with persia koodi onnu paranju thannal kollam.. ee early ethra early annennu ariyamallo .. The complete west syrian liturgy did not come after Valiya Mor Divanasios ... the completeness came only in 1876 after the visit of HH peter IV. Pinne church of east il kannunna liturgy AD 300 il innu kannunna roopathilallayirunnu.. It got its present form only in the seventh century. Aa liturgy St. Addai and St. Mari dethannenu oru traditional belief maatramaanu..

And Edessa was not under the persian prelate. It was a part of the church of antioch. It was on the eastern end of the roman empire. When the famous schoolof theology at Edessa fell into the hands of nestorians, the antiochean fathers closed down that school.

Mathew said...

Dear Ravi George,

Ninagl innu avakaashapedunna araadhana, theology, faith alla sabha thanne oro kaalathu ivide vanna antiochean pithaakanmaaru undaakki thannatha... Vallapozhenkilum nandi ennulla vaakinde artham orkunnathu nallatha..

Church disappearing ennulla mooda swargathil ninnum nnu thazheyirangu,... keralathil thekkottu metran kakshikal disappear aayittu reethum, pentacostum valarunnathu ariyunile ...? aadyam local general knowledge sheriyakiyittu pore padinjarottu general knowledge anweshichu pokunnathu ?

Njaan oru dinner inde katha paranju tharaam... oru 8 varshankalkku munp devalokathu oru dinner party nadannu. Ee dinner party nadanna avasaram enthayirunenno ? upavaasathilum, dhyanathilum , noimbilum kazhiyenda episcopal sunnahadose nadakkumbol.. invitees arayirunnu enno ? annathe LDF nethaakanmaaru ... Innu LDF ine kuutam parayunnathoke anillayirunnu.. annu Oommen chandy ningale sahaayichilla ennulla parathi paranju UDF ine kuttam paranju LDF inodu premam moothirikkanna samayamaayirunnu... Dinner antiokiayil maatramalla ravikutta devalokathum nadakaarund... athu media yil publicity kodukkarumund.. innippol metran kakshikale aarum thirinju nokkunillenkil athu ningade kayyiliruppu kondu.

Mathew said...

Dear Sam,
Enne vittolu.. pakshe athinu munp Edessa Antioch inde keezhilallayirunnu ennu prove cheyannam. Pattumo ? Jesus syriac speak cheythirunnu ennu njangale aarum paranju dharipichittilla.. Ee syriav=c ennu parayuynnathu aramaic inde oru dialect maaatramaannu.. edessan dialect... malayalathinde malappuram malayalam, kozhikodan malayalam enokke parayunnathu pole.. and syriac developed in and around edessa which was always under antioch. alla ennu prove cheythaal njaan sammathikkam..

Njangal maatramalla roman catholics ayittu friendship il.. ningade sabha oru 20 varsham munp muthal ithe pole oru limited communion roman catholics aayittu discuss cheyyunnud,.. athenthina ? avarde preethi sampaadikkananno ? Pinne St. peters primacy de kaaryam... ithu syrian sabha aadima kaaalam muthal padipichitullatha... proof venno ? njaan tharaam... pakshe njaan proof thanukazhinju pinne urundu kalikkulla ennu vaaku tharannam...

Liturgy worship originated from Antioch ennu aarum parayunnilla.. It originated in Jerusalem and the original was in Greek.. later it got translated into syriac...

mohanmathew said...

The point raised by Ravi George that Arabs are Ishmaelite, not Israelites is a very valid point for continuing our discussions.

The descendants of Nasranis are TRUE Israelites, which means Promised Children of Israel are there in Malankara. In fact, we are the masters of Arabs, though we do not wish to rule over them treating them as slaves. Not surprising why Arab Christians are disappearing !

For Whatever reasons, IT IS NOT WORTHY TO CONTINUE a Master-Slave relationship with Arabs for the future of Indian Christianity.



(For details: Please Refer Ravi George’s posting on Sept 3, 8.45 pm.)

mohanmathew said...

Dear Mathew
The national Orthodox believers will not withdraw any case against you because their strategy is to meet you peacefully and legally.

Understand that one of their policy is to prolong cases so that your people get time to understand the reality about the descendants of Ishmael who themselves are vanishing and their real slaves in India (SLAVES OF SLAVES). AND IT IS WORKING!

The actual description for your Punthenkurishu is ‘SLAVES OF SLAVES’.

We are of the view that THIS SLAVERY WILL NOT BE ACCEPTABALE IN A FREE INDIA if you are considering the future of Indian Christianity.

The first natural question when you bring the word of God and Church before a FREE INDIA is: “WHY YOUR CHURCH IS UNDER A FOREIGN NATION Where you do not have a say”

If you are so much in large numbers, why you are begging at their doorstop for mercy? You can easily capture everything in Malankara Association and your HB Thomas Bava could become the Malankara metropolitan too.

I’m sure, it is not because of Christian love, because the cases were begun only by the Antiochian side. Only after you began to lose totally you changed the track to begging for mercy.


It is obvious why you decided to stay away from the Association meting after your demands for changes were all complied with.

Mathew said...

Dear Mohan Mathew..... Suriyani sabhayilullavarokke arabikalaannenna kandupiditham kollam... arabic samsaarikunnavarokke Ishmaelites anennananno chetttande discovery ? Kollam !! Parettinde pinthalamurakkaraya parettinu pattiya charithra gaveshaknamaar..

Pinne malankara nasranikalenganeya israelinde true children aakunnathu ? oro kandupidithangale..

Arab christians maatramalla disappearing... Thekkott metran kakshi sabhayum disappearing mode il thanneya... micro/mini/maha/mega sammelanangalile 25 laksham malankara nasraanikalde kannakku kettu athu appaade vishwasikkalle.. Arab rajyangalil christianmity disappear aakunnathinu socio-political reasons onde... avide disappear aakunnundekilum diaspora vikasikkunnathu kandille ? Pakshe metran kakshiaklde kaaryam athalallo.. ningal thekku reethukaarkkum pentecostukaarkkum valaran patiya valamannennanallo ariyan saadhichathu.

Ningl case onnum withdraw cheyyilla... kaarannam satan avasaanatholam shramichukondeyirikkum... ee aarthi theerumbol case um avasaanikkum.. pakshe chettan paranjathupole devalokathe ee aarthi theeran pokunilla.. athukondu caseum avasaanikkan pokunilla..

Ningal ini lokavasantholam case neettikondupoyalum njangal ningalkku maatram satyam ennu thonnunna kaaryam angegarikkan pokunilla..

Ningal ningade sankuchithamaaya chinthagathi upayogichu njangale enthu peru vennamenkilum vilicho .. who cares ? Kuraykunna pattikittu kallerinjaal athinde kura kooduka maathrameyullu...

Is meran kakshi church a Indian national church ? appol pinne ee vishwasa pramannnathil ettu parayunna slaiheekavum katholikkavumaya sabha enna kaaryathinu enthu prasakthi ?

We will be never able to prove our majority in the malankara association because it will never be held in the proper manner. 2002 is the best example.. oru neraya voters list polum undakkathe thattikottiya association ningalu thanne vechonda mathi. njangalkkathu venda...

Njangade aavashyangalokke angeegarichittum njangal association il sambandhichila ennu paranjal metran kakshikal vishwasikkum.. njangade oru kaaryam observer angeekarichu.. Mathews II malankara metropolita ennu avakaasham paranju kalpana ayachukooda ennu. allathe voters list inde kaaryam, duplicate representation de kaaryam, pallikalde ennathinde kaaryam ingane oru association inu basic aayittulla kaaryanagal kelkkan polum thayarallayirunnu...

Pinne ningalkku aalukale paranju mandanmaarakam..

Geogy Abraham said...

Mr. Mathew said is true facts.

Why to spend money in court cases? Why cant this money utilized in spreading gospel especially in outside Kerala. These activities are now taken care by Catholics & CSI & CNI’s; even Marthomities have raised the missionary works outside Kerala.

Why can’t IOC Devalokam come to a point of amicable settlement i.e. out of court settlement? See, there will be losses for both the parties. I am sure that Devalokam people will not be interested in out of court settlement as they will be losers for all the closed down churches. Their mentality is to capture all the churches in Malankara; probably they may interfere in Marthoma & Syro Malabar churches.

See, at least come to a point of decision where Parishioners can come to church and offer prayers. Then later when peace & harmony is experienced by parishioners come to the talks of resolving the issues in a democratic way.

As Mr. Mathew said even Jacobite Church had a Church constitution, but it could not be produced to court as some of the metropolitan of Jacobite Church objected it even though the then Catholicose H.B. Baselious Paulose II said to produce it to court, but those who managed the court cases didn’t do as per the H.B. instruction. What to do? THIS IS AGAIN ONE OF THE BIGGEST MISTAKES OF JACOBITE SYRIAN.
So in the bird’s eye point of view there are three reasons according to me for the unending court cases and its related problems.
1. Due to the greediness of IOC Devalokam for Church properties. Or Give & take policy. Settle the dispute in DEMOCRATIC way and distribute church properties w.r.t. the proportions.
2. Due to the internal mistakes of Jacobite Syrian church metropolitans (according to me disobedience to the local supreme head). If Jacobite Church had produced to the court their church constitution; the current yelling of IOC Devalokam to implement 1934 constitution would not exist.
3. Reunited Church of 1958.

Regards,
GA

mohanmathew said...

Mathew

Lot many points have come to light to continue our discussions

1. SHOLLD NOT propagate religion with a hidden agenda to CONVERT.

If Christ wants someone in the Church , HE will bring that soul. OUR way to LIVE A CHRIST like life and propagate love and Gospel.
For Example: Paul was wanted by Our Lord and HE took him by FORCE.

2 ADMISTRATIVE & POLITICAL Freedom is one of the main issues raised by many here. So long as the Church continues to be under a foreign church, this cannot be achieved. So the future Church should be presented as FREE AND HONOURABLE FOR INDIA. This policy is common for all Orthodox Churches everywhere.

3. FUTURE CHURCH in India should maintain dignified relationship with ALL APOLSTOLIC CHURCHES. That means no SLAVERY WILL BE ACCEPATBLE TO US

4. If any Church which wants alliance, it can be formed only on the basis of EQUAL DIGNITY

5. SALMOOSAS which demands slavery should be thrown away in ARABIAN SEA because it violates Christ given FREEDOM to practice Faith.

6. Cultural integration is very important.

7. There should a SYSTEM of ADMINISTRATION and ONE-MAN-SYNOD should not decide important issues for maintaining TRANSPARENCY

8. Selection of Metropolitan should be done in by ECCLSIASTIC and DEMOCRATIC traditions

9. Decision taken by One Man Synod favouring money power is dangerous for the FUTURE CHURCH.

10. Decorating CORRUPT PEOPLE and SYCOPHANTS with HONOURS is dangerous trend and will be mater of LAUGHTER for FUTURE generations.

Ravi George said...

2002 CONSTITUTION IS A SOCIETY of members of some 'free' churches and those which come under the 1934 constitution churches. It is not a constitution which cannot be bropken away like the 1934.

Any member can JOIN or QUIT.

It is not a Chrstian Bharnaghatana wher there is ECCLESIATIC leadership governance.

Acoriding to this 22002 society, Churchesa are free and Vicar, Bishops are PALLI THOZHILALYKAL.

This so called 'bhranaghatana' wil be put to TEST very soon!

Poor poeople in the Jacobite camp have been led to belive that it is substitute Bharnaghatana like the 1934 one.

Ravi George said...

It is not me or any Orthodox Church member who said Arab Christians are vanishing. It is the most highly reputed NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE.

Very few in Jacobite camp know the real status of the Antiochian Chruch. This is becasue most are poor ordinary people who are not 'chavleers, or Bar Itho koonthaali'

It is not me who said that the 'biggest ever gathering' (acording to Thomas Thirumeni's kalpana) had ony HUNDREDS gathered. It was YOUR OWN MATHRUBHOOMI. (It was well taken by this site, otherwise VS would have said "LAKHS attended the meeting")


You say our people have left for Pentacostals? Of course many of them. But the southern Churches also saw the maximum number of people who migrated to the West. They are our strength now. That promted Thomas thrimeni to issue a Kalpana 'Not to attend worship in any Metran kakshi churches abroad'

The nyou saw teh rally in KTM which was called by HH BAVA Thirumeni at a very very short notice. Thirunmeni kept on praying like Moses; He did not organsie it like your wold-renowed excellent organiser

Is HB 'DR" a person of Orthodiox faith? (By the by, nobody has answered from where Dr. Thomas Thirumeni got his Ph.D. Does he know the expansion of Ph.D.? Ithokke Thirumniyude magic anu.

Independent obsevers say the wave of people leaving Jacobite camp for petacostals have already started. Anyhow, the strength of people in Alwaye meet IS WRITING ON THE WALL.

sam said...

mr.Mathew
I am not here to teach History of Church in Malankara! The reason is that even if I give you the Facts,You won't listen to that.I can better utilise that time for something good for My Lord!
You Better study History of Kerala, Persian Churh ,and When the Catholicate was stopped or cease to exist
Also learn the history of Thozhiyur Sabha Or Kaldaya Sabha in Malankara!In Persian Church The Whole Christians did not accept Nestorian Teachings!

Then about Antiochean Relationship was there before Coonan Cross Oath! rather Going Back To Ivanios of Malankara Reeth history, You Prove It!
You wanted to ridicule everybody(all mosc faithful) ! That Is All you are doing here!
diring the first Three Ecuminical/catholic Synods Persian Church was not under Antioch!

rinsam2002 said...

DearJacobites, Prior To the Udayamperoor Synod in 1599 Malankara was follwing Kaldaya rite/East syriac rite.
The west syriac rite in Malankara began after A.D.1685.The Bishop who came with H.H.Yeldho bava,Mar Ivanois Hidaytulla in the year 1688/89 with mutual understanding with MarthhomaIV started five fundamental aspects of faith such as Heaven (to oppose Catholic faith),Lahamo(The Leavened bread in Holy qurbana),Fasting on Wedneday&Friday,and concerning Holy sipirit(opposing catholic faith) and the rest were In East Syriac.The roman catholics tried to force Malankara church to follow Latin Kaldaya rite and the R.C rite of Rome.These were totally rejected by Malankara Church by .As per the understanding of Marthoma IV and Mar Hidaytulla:- In Faith to follow West Syriac rite and in worship to follow East syriac.It was Marthoma IV who requested Antiochean Partriarch to send some clergy to teach the faith in Malankara.therefore Mar Sakralla Mafriyana team arrived in Malankara A.D.1751.
West Syrian rite both in faith/worship, dress/robes,etc came in force in A.D.1788 as per the Agreement between MathomaVI(mar Dionyasius) Mar Ivanios at Mavelikkara puthiyakavu Pally.The advanced in(both north and south of Kerala) west syrian rite began A.D. 1795 when Kadumangattu Mar kooriloseII started theological studies/education In Mulanthurithy church and Vettikkal church
Mavelikkara padiyola of 1788 mentions two 'kramam',old kramam(Kadaya rite)and New rite(west syriac) in faith and order.
It is not present Kaldaya community in Kerala who brought chirstianism in Malankara.Although malankara church had early connections with persian church,it had only accepted the first Three Ecumenical synods.Even In Persia There were two groups of Christians (1) Who has not followed Nestore teachings (2)Who followed Nestore teachings from A.D.431.The Christians who has not followed Nestore teachings were under catholicate of Persia. again in A.D.1490 four(4) nestorian bishops came in Malankara.Their liturgy and worship were different from Persian Church(which malnkara followed originally)and therefore Malankara church had nothing to with Kaldaya community(who followed Nestorian rite)in Kerala/Malankara.It is not the way you try to complicate the issue by saying that there is no unanimity among historians!!If West Syriac liturgy wasin use In Malankara prior to 1599,there was no need for Rev. Konattu Mathen Malpan Chor episcopa to edit and publish
"PampaKuda namaskarakramam'in malayalam with Antiochean partriarch Kalpana dated A.D.1910,Edavam 30th from Srai church ,with preface from Malnkara malpan konattu Mathen Chor-episcopa dated 1927, meenam 15th Ephesuschurch,pampakuda.Complete/entire West syriac rite of liturgyof present day (Kurbana kramam) was introduced in Malakara by Mar Yooyakim Coorilose during1843-1875.

The MoSC having the present Liturgy from Syrian Orthodox Church
which is here for the bout 300 years old.Not more Than that.
The British people who brought to english language here thar we are using for more than400 years. We(India)follow the pattern of constituition of British people.This does not mean We Indians are British or Indebted to British for ever!British people brought,developed ,technology,road,rail,air transport,communication system etc in India!
Like wise we had relation with Syrian orthodox Church of antioch,This does not mean We Malankara people/church should be under them forever! we honour and respect them!The Liturgy we are using currently is Antiochean Based Syrian Orthodox Church.Even before prior to advent of British people/europeans we used The Persisn Liturgy!The Church in Persia was not totally Nestorians!
Pease read Malankars Church history By Dr.V.C.Samuel,The Catholicate History by RaoSahib O.M.Cherian,etc etc
Also refer to the decisions / Minutes of Udayamperoor Synod under Arch Bisop Manessis ,which will give you more details of East Syriac liturgy in Malankara!

George said...

We are going on passing coments and ultimately everyone has completely forgotten the topic: THE FUTURE OF CHRISTIANITY IN INDIA. This exactly is our strength. We are experts in tactfully diverting the topic. We are tactfully diverting and distorting the gospel. Under such situations, what is the future of Christianity in India? I am afraid, there is no future. The new generation Pentecostal groups are no better. They are greater experts in creating groups and fighting among themselves. What Dr S Radhakrishnan said is true. CHRISTIANS ARE ORDINARY PEOPLE WITH EXTRA ORDINARY CLAIMS. we have no future if we go like this forgetting the mission.
###George Joseph###

Ravi George said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Reni said...

PART 1
Future of Indian Christianity should not be linked with the future of other nations. Liking OUR FUTURE with any other race or country means if they perish, we too will perish. If they flourish we too will flourish.

Almost all foreign Christian leaderships are in a state of decay. Regarding Antioch, NOT ONLY the leadership, but the faithful are also vanishing. That means, if we follow them, as per the advice of Jacobites, we will soon see a DEAD END in the nearest future. Not only that such relationship which is subservient WILL NEVER BE ACCEPTABLE TO INDIANS.

I know this is not easily digestible to Jacobite camp who are used to their SLAVERY.

Reni said...

PART 2
Now let me explain WHY is a SUBSERVIENT relationship will not be acceptable in a nation of 120 crore people.

Unlike other major religions, Christianity has an organised set up. THE CHURCH has got a visible head who leads a synod consisting of bishops and RULED by a CONSTITUTION. The ecclesiastic leadership which is seen as a symbol of authority and leadership should be free from other influences. That means the top leadership of the church should never be not be under the governance of another race or nation. They are answerable to CHRIST (GOD) only. Being a SELF RESPECTING nations of 120 crore people (about one fifth of the global population) why should Indians be subservient? With its status as a major power and much much more sophisticated than Arabs or many other races why shouldn’t Indians have our own leadership?

It is not just a question of headquarters being in another country but must find anwer an important natural question: Are Indians cannot occupy that leadership position. But unfortunately, the whole Indian-Antioch relationship theory has been set up for sanctifying permanent SLAVERY CONCEPT by certain boot-lickers who get certain special status and facours. Why should the future church lose its FUTURE for the sake of a few people

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Mathew
Please tell me about Thesis prepared by Geevarghese panicker Achan(late MarIvanios Of Malankara Reeth),What was the Thesis,The Subject,the year,the university/School etc.you cannot take it as history of Malankara church!if you would like know about The Liturgy rite and worship traditions of MOSC read Article published By Dr.Kurien Thomas in MTV.


If you have Any concrete evidence to support your alleged claim that Antiochen Liturgy(west Syrian Lturgy)was In Malankara prior to Udayamperoor Synod You prove it!

Geogy Abraham said...

Dear Reni,
Here, could you please explain where slavery is and due to foreign leadership the church is under decay. By superficially you may feel. With regards to Jacobite Church nothing can be done without the consent of the Parishioners or Palli pothuyogham. If it is unanimously decided for any cause it is done. This not slavery. Here, Parishioners unanimously accept by heart that their Spiritual Leader is Patriarch of Antioch (remember only SPIRITUAL LEADER). Here, Jacobite brothers want their spiritual leader to be from the land of son of god (i.e. which IOC devalokam call as Arab), then what is the problem with IOC devalokam. Let them do according to their WILL; and let the IOC devalokam grow according to their WILL.

Regards,
GA

Ravi George said...

The leadership aspect is just one point. We should also look at other aspects like Church Constitution and evangelisation

Ravi George said...

@GA, Thanks
Arabs are Ishmaelites. Jesus was born in the tribe of Judah, among the promised children of Abraham (JUDAH is ISSAC's grand child).

Please see Reni's posts (part 1 & 2 Sept 7) for answer to "WHY FOREIGN LEADERSHIP IS NOT ACCEPTABLE IN INDIA).

many Hindu Organisations have raised such conerns in the past

Ravi George said...

GA Said:

BISHOPS & PRIESTS HAVE NO AUTHORITY IN ADMINSTERING THE CHURCH & THEIR PROPERTIES.

Then WHAT is their Authority in the church?

Managing the Church is the Pothuyogam's job. It is just the same in the Orthodox Church.

A Bishop is the VISIBLE Head of the Church. Why should it be reserved for a FOREIGNER when we have even better spiritual people here.

The issue is that according to Jacobites only ARABS are eligible for it. (I have no problems with Pallipothuyogam owning and managing the church. The the same rule is there in the 1934constitution) BUT TH E PROBLEM IS WITH THE ECCLESIOLOGY. IT IS OUT IN THE JACOBITE CHURCH. Your LOCAL church can decide on a majority appoint PASTOR as the head of the church or MAtA AMRITANDAMAYI as your hugh priestess. That is one of the issues.

secondly, ACCORDINGTO THE CONSTTUTIONOF ANTIOCH, INDIANS ARE NOT ELIGIBLE TO BECOME A PATRIARCH. THEY SAY YOU ARE UNDER THEM (The Arch Diocese of their Churh in Malankara. BUT members of the Jacobite Church do not hav equal dignity. Likewise teh bishops are also NOT treated equally like theirs)

DEAR GEOGY ABRAHAM , COULD YOU KINDLY tell me WHY Indians are not eligible to become a PATRIARCH?
Is HB THOMAS BAVA eligible to become a Patriarch?(You talk too much about MAJORITY. But outsiders do not come anywhere your number)

If the answer is 'YES" I am ready accept that your CHURCH IS FREE and has got equal status with all other universal Orthodx Church members.

Ravi George said...

IF INDIANS ARE TREATED IN THE FOLLOWING WAY WE ARE PROUD TO BE WITH YOU, DEAR JACOBITE FRIENDS.

1. EQUAL DIGNITY with the Arab Christians.

2. EQUAL OPPORTUNITY for all MEMBERS irrespective of RACE, Language, ORIGIN, and CULTURE

3. ECCLESIOLOGY approved as per the BIBLE and Teachings of Christ

4. EQUAL DIGNITY FOR ALL the 12 DISCIPLES LIKE THE WAY JESUS TREATED THEM and FOLLOWED DURING THE TIME oF APOLSTLES. They are all brothers not master and slaves

5. SPECIAL RESPECT DUE TO THE FATHER and FOUNDER OF THE CHURCH. (A practice followed in all churches everywhere and also commanded by St Paul--Ningale natatthiyavare orthukolluvin.)

6. STRONGLY CONDEMN THE KALPANA OF HH PATRIARCH THAT THOMA SLEEHA IS NOT EVEN A PRIEST (Who is this bishop to DECLARE THIS? ON WHAT AUTHORITY HH SAID THIS SATANIC STATEMENT? He refused Christ when he said this)

7. ARAB CHRISTIAN LEADERS MUST GIVE TOTAL ATTENION TO THEIR LAND INSTEAD OF HAVING OPULENT LIFESTYLE and DINNERS with State Chiefs when their sheep are being slaughtered (as reported by National Geographic magazine statistics and Newspapers)

WE are ready for compromise and good relationship based on the above points.

WE CANNOT HAVE ANY DISCUSSIONS IF YOU CONTINUE TO TREAT INDIANS AS SECOND CLASS CITIZENS.

We are proud about OUR INDIAN HERITAGE. WE ARE PROUD THAT LORD CHRIST SENT HIS STRONG DISCIPLE TO OUR LAND. THAT SHOWS LORD CHRIST LOEVS INDIANS. WE too love our INDIA, so NO compromise with the ANTIOCHIAN stands that Indians are LOW class. (In fact it is anti-national to receive a Patriarch in India when HH Patriarch is hooding this view). YOU too have accepted the stand taken by Antioch when you are treating them like Masters. WE CONDEMN YOUR STAND THAT INDIANS ARE LOW CLASS compared to Antioch.

Mathew said...

Dear Ravi George,

Saare.. Ee Malankara association ennu parayunnathu oru volunatary aayitulla sambhavamannu... athukondu oru edavaka palli koodi a association il ninnum vittu ninnu vere onnil cheranulla fundamental right nammude India maharajyathinde Bharannagadana anuvadikkunnund.... ee Bharannagadanyakku meethe oru 34 ile bharannagadanyum parakkulla... aa Fundamental right upayogichannu 2002 association koodiyathum bharannagadana angeegarichathum pallikalil aa bharannagadana praabalyathil varuthiyathum..

Onnu chodichote,, Ningade sabhayil ellam nadakkunathu 34 ile bharannagadana anusarichanno ? straight answer vennam..

Mathew said...

Ravi George,

Arab christians are disappearing from their homeland ennathannu sheriyaya vasham.. Pakshe athinulla socio - political reasons kodi padikannam... At the same time ee diminishing christians aannu US, Europe, South america, Australia ennivadankalil diaspora aayittu valrnnukondirikkunnathu.. so It is a balanced thing happening... allathe arab christianity bhoomukhathuninnum angu shoonyakashathekku poykondirikuvalla..

Pakshe south kerala yil nungal reethinum pentecostinum valamaayikondirikuvale... west ilekula migration marakunnilla.. but thekku oru kudumbathil chennal avide christianitiyle ella sectileyum representation undaakum.. apol ethandoru kuzhappamund thekku orthodoxy kku alle..? Athokke gaveshanam nadathiyittu pore antiochia vare pokunnathu ?

Ee Honorary doctorate kodukkarulla kaaryam saar arinjittille ? Enna arinjo angane oru pathivund...

Mathew said...

Dear Mr. Sam,

I am not expecting to learn any hiostory from you.. From the few postings you have made, I can guage your historical knowledge. You need not give me any facts.. because saar facts ennu vishwasichu vilambunna mandatharangalkku njan counter facts thannal saarinu utharam muttipokum..

Second paragraph vaayichu kazhinjappol chila samshayangal... Ee catholicate was stopped or ceased to exist ennu ezhuthiyallo... athu ethu catholicate ine kurichannu ? Thozhiyoor , kaldaya sabhakalumaayi ithinulla bandham manasilaayilla.... In persian church whole christians did not accept nestorian teachings ennu ezhuthiyallo... Athu njaan sammadichu.. ee nestorian teachings accept cheyyatha christianikalde nila enthayirunnu ennu koodi onnu padikkamo ?

I am not asking you to read malankara reetu history.. I am just asking you to read a thesis work of Pannikkarachan when he was a very big part of orthodox church long long before he became reethu..

I am not here to ridicule anybody.. when you all ridicule my church and its leaders, I deem it necessary to respond.. and while responding I continue with the tone of the original writer... Ningalkku maatramanno ridicule cheyyanulla avakaasham ?

One more correction.. Third ecumenical council ( ephesus ) p;ersian church did not even take part... Jurisdiction okke othiri lengthy kaaryangalannu . namukku athine patti oru blog thudangi avide discuss cheyyam..

Peace and love !!!!

Mathew said...

Dear Rinsam,

Liturgy de kaaryathil enikoru tharkkavumila saare... I am the last person to believe that the liturgy that we are using today was here from the first century itself.. On the contrary, i do very well know that the present liturgy took its final form only after 1876 and not before that.. But what was here before 14th century nobody can say with any certitude... whatever we know is from the time of the portuguese arrival and at that time there was a nestorian presence in malankara and it is natural that their chronicles point towards the litrugy of the church of east... More research is necessary on the status of the churchs between Ad 52 until the coming of the portuguese..

But some other points of yours..

You said that the christians of persia who did not accept nestorianism were under the catholicose of the east ..now which catholicose was this ? Because the catholicate of selucia had accepted Nestorians into their fold and the nestorian theology became their theology.. they consider Nestor and theodore as their saints and at the same time consider St. Athanasios and St. severios as heretics.. Now is this catholicate you are referring to ?

Secondly, you have given a comparison between the british dominion of India and comapared it with the antioch connection.. Ente saare... When India became independent and made a constitution of its own.. it did not put down the beginning clauses of the constituition as " India is a divison of the Universal British empire of which the British King/Queen is the supreme head ".. Is that the case with the malankara church constituion ? If it was just a case of honour , sabhayude administration vendiyulla bharannagadanayil oru sister church inde head inde kaaryam parayunnathenthina ? appol entho oru canonical bandham onde alle ?

Mathew said...

(Rinsam contd )

Sar ezhuthiyittulla charithrangalokke vaayichittund.. oppam thanne Ittoop writer ezhuthiyathum, E M philip ezhuthiyathum vaayichittund... avar ezhuthiyathu koduthal vishwasikkam kaarannam sabha pilarunnathinu munp ezhuthiyathanallo... Pinne sabha pilarnnathinu sheshamulla Kanimparambilachateyum vaayichittund... ingane ellam kooti vaayichu daivam thanna comon sense upayogichannu njaan ende conclusions reach cheyyunnathu...

Minutes / decrees of diamper synod persian connection maatramalla parayunnathu.. athile chila decrees point towards Jacobite faith which is contrary to nestorian faith folowed ibn the persian church of east..

Mathew said...

Dear Rinsam,

The thesis was something like , were Malankara christian nestorians ?

It was presented by Fr. P T geevarghese

I think is was published in 1907 ( I have to reconfirm )

The material for this thesis were provided by Mammen Mappilai...

If you are interested to read this, get hold of a copy of " four historical documents " published by Mor Adai study centre.

Peace !!!

mohanmathew said...

Mathew

PEACE ennu ezhuthi kanicchal peace akilla.

Njangale pieces akkan panam nalkunnavaralle ningalude leaders?

VettuKatthiyum vaalum edukkunna Gundakalkku Panam koduthu vitaathirunnal kuracchu peace undakum.

Now Kerala police arrested many people for the BRUTAL attack on Profesor Joseph of Thodupuzha Newman's college.

I NOTICED all of the arrested were from your places like PERUMBAVOOR, KOTHAMANGLAM....etc.

Why have you too imbibed their culture of MURDER? Then doing all these shouting in media "we are for peace" What a hipocrisy!

Ravi George said...

Thekku vadakku ennokke padippicchu janagale split chaythathu Jacobite leaders pandu cheyth aoru pani aanu. Innu athonnum chivaakilla.

South or North, YOU WON"T FIND PEOPLE TO SUPPORT YOU! That was proved without doubt in Alwaye your so called FORT on August 8 2010. Your so called "THE BIGGGEST EVER GATHERING according to Thomas Thirumnei had a few Hundreds (Mathrubhhomi dated 9th August 2010, Kochi edition)

While a QUICK call by Didismos Bava had more lakhs from EVERYWHERE. Jacobite leader who were in high spirits till that day became LAMBS.

It is not due to the fault yours that Arab Church is vanishing. Those who take away the freedom of others will lose theirs too. SO WHAT? HHI shaving more dinners with presidents and state head, though the lambs are scattered!

It is your HOPe that they hav joined DIASPORA CHURCHES. You can get studies from to know their affiliations.

In fact, Arab christians are fun loving and not so religious people. The just want to live easy life... If we are under them we too will be over soon!

SO, NO WAY Getting closer to them.



Malnkara Association is not VOLUNTARY as you think. It is your chuch taht they can join society or not OR Go with pentacostalas.. or whatever.. That is the srength of the Orthodox Church. You CAN TEST YOURS soon

GEEVAR said...

The discussion on “THE FUTURE OF CHRISTIANITY IN INDIA” is significant to the mission to which we are called by the God Almighty. But majority of the comments posted here are not relevant to the title.
Readers might think the topic is “THE FUTURE OF MALANKARA ORTHODOX / JACOBITE CHRISTIANS IN INDIA.” I saw a few comments which strengthen this view.
Dear brethren,
Never think that the future of Christianity in India depends only on Malankara Orthodox or Jacobite Christians. Because, God need not depend Malankara Orthodox or Jacobite Christians to fulfill his wish to spread Gospel for increasing the boundaries of His kingdom.
Do you think that God need to depend us?
There may be many on His side to work for Him. Please refer St. Luke 19:40 and Romans 11:17-22.
But it’s our duty to spread the Gospel through our words and deeds. We are called for this.
We have some missions like SLEEBADHASA SAMOOHAM, missions initiated by H.G. Geevarghese Mar Osthathios, L/L Stephanos Mar Theodosius and few others. Except these, we have nothing to claim our faithfulness as Christians; the followers of Christ and the heir of Apostles.
If we analyze ourselves, it’s clear that, our portion in the mission field is still incomplete.
Every Christian has his own role in the development of the Kingdom of Heaven. We should spend our health and wealth for the sake of God. If this is impossible these discussions will not be fruitful.

GEEVAR said...

1. Increase the boundary of church by preaching Gospel:
Do you fear that gospel preaching may break the relation with other religions? No one could help those who have this fear, because the way to the Heaven is not broad and ease. But we can do the mission without hurting anyone or harming any social bonds. Refer St. Matthew 28: 18-20 and be passionate to obey Jesus.
We know how the church was established in India. The gospel preached by St. Thomas made the Indians, the Hindus know Jesus. He could prove the Christ he is preaching about is truly the God and the son of God. Not only by the words but also by the deeds he could prove this.
Let me ask one thing. Where should we start the mission? Whether in a distant place or in our home town?
I think the mission should be started at our home itself.
Think, what will happen if we are going to preach the gospel in and around our home Village/ State?
I am not pointing on the obstacles, wherever the word of Heaven spread efficiently there will be obstacles.
Will our gospel preaching mission get acceptance from the society?
Shall we get followers to our church from our locality?
Shall we prove the reliability our faith? Apostles could prove the reliability of their faith. The task that they could do is now not beyond our ability. Anyone who likes to counter this opinion should refer St. James 2: 1-17 first.
What should we answer to the question, “how do the Christians differ from the people of other religions?”
What else do we have to mention other than Holy Worship and Spiritual Lectures?
We are all same in acts, aren’t we?

GEEVAR said...

2. Increase the boundary of church by deeds:
Without being pure Christians, development of Church by gospel preaching is not practical.
Today deeds are more important than words to Christianize the world. Only by being real Christians, not by name but by life, we can glorify the name of Christ.
According to Zachariah 8: 18-23; our truthfulness and peacefulness let others follow us.
Zachariah 8: 23:- In those days 10 foreigners will come to one Jew and say, “We want to share in your destiny, because we have heard that God is with you.”
Let’s make the people around us meet Christ through us.
Let’s make others say “We want to share in your destiny, because we have heard that God is with you.”
Discussions without prayer will not be sufficient in itself, because without God we can’t do anything. Let’s pray together for getting an opportunity to participate in the development of the Kingdom of Christ.
With prayers and regards,
Geevar John

GEEVAR said...

The discussion on “THE FUTURE OF CHRISTIANITY IN INDIA” is significant to the mission to which we are called by the God Almighty. But majority of the comments posted here are not relevant to the title.
Readers might think the topic is “THE FUTURE OF MALANKARA ORTHODOX / JACOBITE CHRISTIANS IN INDIA.” I saw a few comments which strengthen this view.
Dear brethren,
Never think that the future of Christianity in India depends only on Malankara Orthodox or Jacobite Christians. Because, God need not depend Malankara Orthodox or Jacobite Christians to fulfill his wish to spread Gospel for increasing the boundaries of His kingdom.
Do you think that God need to depend us?
There may be many on His side to work for Him. Please refer St. Luke 19:40 and Romans 11:17-22.
But it’s our duty to spread the Gospel through our words and deeds. We are called for this.
We have some missions like SLEEBADHASA SAMOOHAM, missions initiated by H.G. Geevarghese Mar Osthathios, L/L Stephanos Mar Theodosius and few others. Except these, we have nothing to claim our faithfulness as Christians; the followers of Christ and the heir of Apostles.
If we analyze ourselves, it’s clear that, our portion in the mission field is still incomplete.
Every Christian has his own role in the development of the Kingdom of Heaven. We should spend our health and wealth for the sake of God. If this is impossible these discussions will not be fruitful.
1. Increase the boundary of church by preaching Gospel:
Do you fear that gospel preaching may break the relation with other religions? No one could help those who have this fear, because the way to the Heaven is not broad and ease. But we can do the mission without hurting anyone or harming any social bonds. Refer St. Matthew 28: 18-20 and be passionate to obey Jesus.
We know how the church was established in India. The gospel preached by St. Thomas made the Indians, the Hindus know Jesus. He could prove the Christ he is preaching about is truly the God and the son of God. Not only by the words but also by the deeds he could prove this.
Let me ask one thing. Where should we start the mission? Whether in a distant place or in our home town?
I think the mission should be started at our home itself.
Think, what will happen if we are going to preach the gospel in and around our home Village/ State?
I am not pointing on the obstacles, wherever the word of Heaven spread efficiently there will be obstacles.
Will our gospel preaching mission get acceptance from the society?
Shall we get followers to our church from our locality?
Shall we prove the reliability our faith? Apostles could prove the reliability of their faith. The task that they could do is now not beyond our ability. Anyone who likes to counter this opinion should refer St. James 2: 1-17 first.
What should we answer to the question, “how do the Christians differ from the people of other religions?”
What else do we have to mention other than Holy Worship and Spiritual Lectures?
We are all same in acts, aren’t we?
2. Increase the boundary of church by deeds:
Without being pure Christians, development of Church by gospel preaching is not practical.
Today deeds are more important than words to Christianize the world. Only by being real Christians, not by name but by life, we can glorify the name of Christ.
According to Zachariah 8: 18-23; our truthfulness and peacefulness let others follow us.
Zachariah 8: 23:- In those days 10 foreigners will come to one Jew and say, “We want to share in your destiny, because we have heard that God is with you.”
Let’s make the people around us meet Christ through us.
Let’s make others say “We want to share in your destiny, because we have heard that God is with you.”
Discussions without prayer will not be sufficient in itself, because without God we can’t do anything. Let’s pray together for getting an opportunity to participate in the development of the Kingdom of Christ.
With prayers and regards,
Geevar John

Reni said...

Will we learn a lesson from history?

When will we stop our ABSOLUTELY UNNECESARY RELATIONSHIP with these far way church and leave them for managing thir HOME affairs.

We are paying a heavy price for this absolutely waste relationships. For this kind of connection is eqaually HARMFUL to them as well as THEY.

They do not FOCUS on their church nor are we able to do ours. The issues in Malnkara are unnecessary. Because of these people who we have lots of problems.

LET US BE GOOD NEIGHBOURS and good christian brothers who can cooperate fot mutual benefit. NO UP-DOWN or MASTER-SLAVE or SUPERIOR -INFERIOR relationships.

WE NEED TO DO HARD WORK TO EDUCATE OUR PEOPLE ABOUT THE HARMS OF CONTINUING THIS KIND OF UNNECESSARY RELATIOSHIP WITH THE CHURCH OF ANTIOCH.

We want more visionaries for India. We have a good future only if see opportunities in our land.
I think better sense will prevail among our faithful as time passes. Let us pray for that

Ravi George said...

OUR CHURCH's FOCUS IS ON ABSOLUTELY UNNECESSARY, FRIVOLOUS & RUBBISH HISTORY to spoil the future of Christinity in India.

We will be good only when we DUMP this Antiochian relationship in the ARABIAN SEA.

NO OTHER CHURCH IN THE WORLD FACES THIS KIND OF A DIFFICULT SITUATION DUE TO FOREIGNERS. And these clever people have written in their constitution that ONLY ONE AMONG THEIR RACE SHOULD BECOME THE HEAD of their church.

This happens because here we have some people who support them.
But fortunately just like the number of Arab Christians are coming down, Arab supporters in Malankara are also losing numbers.

Still I can hear some blind supporters saying AMMAYE MARANNAAALUM... NO doubt they too will stop this stupid slogan in the near future!

I am also looking towards the DAY when the Malankara Association takes up the issue of relationship with Antioch.

We should include all the Orthodox Chruches in the World and say they are all our brothers. DELETE the specail status for Antiochia. I Hope by doing this we help Antiochian church. Then ANTIOCH will understand that FOCUSING ON THEIR HOME IS EVEN BETTER JOB THAN INTERFERING IN THE AFFAIRS OF ANOTHER COUNTRY

Reni said...

Dear Geevar


You have made a very valid point. While I was a student in a North Indian Univesity, a Hindu hostel mate was particulary keen about knowing my faith.

HE could digest a lot about pur faith and agreed with the Bible that Jesus Christ is saviour and God. But what he objected was this preistly hierarchy. He came from a Hindu background with a nationalistic spirit. He had heard that Christianity has bishops appointed by foreign chruch heads and these local bishops are reporting to foreign church heads. I told him that practice is still in some churches whcih are udner the foreign heads. Then he said "That is why you are not acceptable in India"

GEEVAR, We have to notice this fact. INDIANS are not behind anyone. In the olden days, a foreign person was considered moe important one.

if we want the Church to be accepted, we should stop worshiping foreigners and do our own business.

The Church in Antioch has many problems. Let them solve theirs. We can manage ours.

Times have changed. We need to have a clear agenda for INDIANS.
The church has to look at it constitutin, its leadership, etc when we discuss the FUTURE CHRISTIANITY.

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Mathew
Section 101 Of MOSC constituition refer to Partriarch! read that!also The Official Hudaya canon recognised by MOSC .The Position Of Partriarch is like that in MOSC!
Further more it does not Say MOSC is Part of Universal Syrian Orthodox Church!
As Per the Synod decisions Of Nicia There are 4 Partriarchs are:-" First and Head of four Patriarch was Rome.second Alexandrea,3rd Constantinaples and 4th Antioch all under the Roman territory or Empire
The Bishop/episcopa the east(Persia)he has got authority to consecrate Bishops under him,like Partriarch in Antioch, the Episcopa/Bishop ,he will be known as Catholicose,and will be remembered in Thubdhen from the date of Synod!
When The Catholicose participate in Universal synods he will be seated Next to Jerusalem partriarch( known as 5th Partriarch).In abysinia There is no need of Partiarch,However the Bishop /episcopa of Abysinia is Under the Alexandrean Partriarch and Alexandrean partriarch will be consecrationg Bishops for Abysinia."
Look now(at present) the Coptic Church head does not interfere neither with Ethiopea nor with Eritrea churches for consecration of Bishops!
As per Nicea Synod ,Catholicate of the east has full authority and freedom in running his See! now look at your own Church and Church of syrian orthodox in Damascus!
from the above it is clear church in Malankara was not under Syrian Patriarch!

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Mathew,could you able to tell about your great/great grant parents in 14th or 15th centuary?
In Malankara the nazranis were not recording history of Church/or the locality!
secondly,the available records show that the customs,and traditions we had was from persia!the Stone crosses that were found in Malankara are of Persian empire art/craft.
The Mavelikkara Padiyola mention two orders or KRAMAM, The old one East Syriac,the new one West Syriac!if you don't believe that I cannot tell you anything!
The Other important Thing, people Who Are behind "Kappi Canon" cannot accept the truth!
In A.D.1665 Abdul Jaleel Mar gregorios who visited Malankara he is not from Antioch!Although you people reconise him as an Antiochean Bishop!
The Thaksa used by Abdul Jaleel Gregorios was Kaldaya Catholic order printed in Rome!While in Malankara he wrote a Kalpana which was in Kaldaya Syriac.
He used Unleavened bread in H.Qurbana!His mortals in Vadakan Paravoor church!His Robes/dress were different from Antiochean Bishops!
Therefor no basis for your alleged theory Antiochean liturgy In Malankara from 1st centuary!

Mathew said...

When Mr. Geevaghese brought us back to the subject under discussion, I was hoping that this blog will live upto its purpose and I wanted to stop replying to the senseless arguments of metran kakshis.. Pakshe chila thimiram bhadhichavar aa nalla message um direction thirichu antiokiayilekku vittu...ee sahodarande / ayalvakkathukaarande kidapparayil matram olinju nokkunna asughathinu oru perund... ente maanyatha athu ividezhuthaan anuvadikkunilla..

I also had a Hindu friend from north India.. He told me that christianity is doing a lot of good works.. But their problem with christianity is that we worship a foreign God because Jesus was a foreigner.. St. Thomas who brought christianity was a forigner.. the vestments of our priests is foreign.. the liturgical language is foreign.. They can accept christianity as Indian only if we have a Indian Jesus, Indian St. Thomas, Liturgy in Sanskrith, Kaashayam for priests etc..

Thekku vadakku enna vivechanam kaannichathalla... thekkanallo metran kakshikalde kotta... aviduthe sthithi paranju eneyullu... athum nere thalakeezhaayittu puthiya arthathil kaannunnathu ee nerathe paranja thimiram badhichirikkunnathukondannu..

Daivam rogashaanthi nalkatte ennu prarthikkane njangalkku pattu..

Mathew said...

Dear Rinsam,

Saar njaan parayatha kaarynagaloke paranjirikkunnu... Itha parayunnathu oru aaveshathinde purathu maatram ezhuthathe njan enthannu ezhuthiyittullathu ennu vaayichu manasillakiyittu vennam respond cheyyan..

Njan ningade bharannagadanayil patriarcheseine kurichu entha paranjitullathu ennalla chodichathu.. ningade Independent, indegenous, autocephalous, apostolic, autonomous, Vaideshikamaayathonnum thottu theendiyittillatha swathanthra bharathathile swathanthra sabhayude swathanthra bharannathinu vendi maatramaayittu thattikoottiyundaakiya 34 ile bharannagadanayil oru videsha sabha meladhyakshande peru parayunnathenthina ? Athu India and Britain thammilulla bandham poleyayirunnenkil, Indian constituion il Brithish rajniyude peru parayunillallo ... entho canonical bond ullathukondalle Bharannagadana polathe legal document il ningal aa Patriarch ine ulpeduthiyirikkunnathu ?

Njaan MOSC is a part of Universal syrian church ennu evideyenkilum ezhuthiyo ? njaan parayatha kaaryangalokke saarevidunna kandu pidichathu ?

Mathew said...

( Rinsam contd.. )

As per the synod decisions of Nicea Patriarchates four alla.. only three - Rome, Alexandria and Antioch... Constantinople became Patriarchate only later in the next synod..

Saar Catholicose inde sthaanathe paranjathokke sheri thanne.. Synod decisions valare vyakthamaayittu parayunnund ... " Adhehathinde ( Catholikkayude ) sthaanam Yerushalemile episcopaykkoppamaayirikkannam... Yerushalemile episcopa caesariyayile episcopayude bharannathin keezhilaayirikkannam".

Ippol manasilayille aa sthanathinde nila.... Antioch Patriarchate inde bharannathin keezhilulla caesaeryayude Bishopinde bharanaparidhikullilulla Yerushaleminde patriarcheseinde oppamaayirikkannam catholikkayude sthanam..

Ee yerushalem patriarchate bharannaparamaaya adhikaarangalulla oru swathanthra sthanarthi alllayirunnu... He was within the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Caesaerea... Pinne Jerusaleminde importance kannakilaakki aviduthe episcopa ykku Patriarch enna sthananaamam nalki ennu maatram...

Pakshe saar paranjathokke sammadhichunkondu thanne... Ee paranja catholicate ephesus synod kazhinjittu nestorian aayi maaripoyallo saare... avarde pinthudarchavakasham church of east allenkil Assyrian church inannu... Nestorian vishwasam sweekarikkanja kizhakkan suriyanikkarkku vendi antiokia patriarchese create cheytha office aannu Maphrianate of tigrith.. athannu pilkaalathu nirthalakiyathu.. appo nyamaaayittum chodikkavunna chodyam... ee randu catholicate il ethannu ningade catholicate ? atheyo ee randumalle ?

Njangade sabhaykku vyakthamaaya oru pinthudarchayund... Suriyani sabhayil nirthalakkiyathum, sthapana kaalam muthal antiochia simhasanathodu vidheyapettirunnathumaaya maphrianate annu njangadethu.. Njangalkku aa kaaryathil ningalkkullathu pole oru confusion um illa..

Pinne saarinu urappanno, Coptic church Ethiopian / eritrean kaaryangalil edapedunnilla ennu ? Sherikkum padichittu vennam ezhuthaan ..

Mathew said...

(Rinsam contd...)

Ende great grand parents inde vishwasathinde kaaryathil enikku oru urappund... Ende kudumbakaaru purathanakaalam muthal edavaka koodiyirunna palli diamper synod ile listil " Jacobite Patriarch of antioch " inde keezhilulla pallikalde listile pettathaannu.. athukondu ende poorvikare kurichu enikku vyakthamaaya oru urappund..

But one thing is sure... available records are not enough to say with any certitude what were the exact traditions and practices of the church here... More research is needed in that field..

Allathe njaan oridathum innu kaannnunna ella kaaryangalum 14th / 15th centuries il undaayirunnu ennu avakaashapettitilla... But I am sure that we had connections with both the church of east and the church of Antioch....

Persian stone crosses are not a property of the church of east alone... The Bible written during the reign of Mor Michael Rabo Patriarch in the 8th century was in Estrangelo syriac script which is closer to the east syriac than west syriac.. ee stone crosses inde keezhilulla inscriptionsile vishwasa proclamation is contrary to what Nestorians teach... so.. stone crosses allenkil estrangelo syriac inscriptions maatram nokiyittu we were under the church of east ennu parayunnathu mandatharamaannu..

THanneyummalla , I never ever claimed that the west syriac liturgy as we see today was present here from the first century itself... on the contrary I have always written that the liturgy as we see today happened only in 1876 bafter the visit of HH Peter IV Patriarch.. veendum njaan parayatha kaaryangal enthaannu maashe njanparanju ennu parayunnathu ?

Mathew said...

( rinsam contd..,)

Pinne Kappi canon ine kurichu paranjallo ? Naannamille saare ningalkku ? Kappi canon inde charithram ariyavo ? Ee Kappi canon ennu kaliyakki vilichathu marthoma kaarannu ...Avare case il tholpikkan undaakkiya canon aanu kappi canon ennu pilkaalathu ariyapettathu ... Ningalum koodi pothu pithaavennu angeekarikunna Pulikottil II thirumeniyeyannu samkuttychettan adhikshepichathu...

Pinne St. Gregorios ine kaldaayakaaranakkan cheeranchan muthal ningade His - storians othiri shramichittund... pakshe onnnum angu sheriyavunilla.. aa pithaavine nestorian aakan ulla shramathilulla paraspara virudha prasthaavanakal vaayichal mathi athu manasilaakkan... Aa pithavide sustatikkon suiyaniyil vadakkan poaravoor palliyilund... nalla suriyani ariyavunna aarekondenkilum athjonnu tharjama cheyyichu vaayichal aa pithavinde vishwasam enthaayirunnu enu manasilaakam.. Kothamangalam baavaye polum nestorian aakan shramichavaralle metran kakshikal... Kurachu naal kazhiyumbol HH peter IV patriarchineyum nestorian aakum ningal...

God Bless !!!

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Mathew
You Cannot ascertain That Your great Grand Parents were Antiochean followers during 14th/15th centuary the reason,No antiochean Bishops were in Malankara prior to Udayam peroor Synod.Tere is no need of Conductiong any reaserch to find out what was the Liturgy followed by Malankara prior to Udayamperoor Synod!Available record is giving neceeary/ample information.You people always like Charactor assasination!That exactly what you are doing here!

There is nothing you have yet proved for your alleged Malankara/Antiochean connection prior to Udayamperoor Synod! Apart from Twisting facts/realities You are not there with logic and reasons for your claims!
In early Alexandrean Church The Bishop/Metroplitan were consecrated by 12 priests!In Malankara The Administrator of Church were called or known as "Jathikku Karthavyan" Or Arkidhayokkan!If malankara was under Antioch we were not using that Titles before Udayamperoor Synod!

I did not try to make Bishop Gregorios,Abdul Jaleel as Nestorian !That is your way of thinking!What I said was He was not an antiochean orthodox bishop,he was Bishop of Armenian Church which is in Communion with Latin catholics.There is no need to get any learned Syriac pundit to know about it.It Is The Jacobites Who are trying To Say Everybody who came in Malankara
as bishop from from abroad ,Persia/Alexandrea/ are being called as Antiocheans!
If You Read The Two Epistles written By St.Peter there is no mention Of Antioch In It!You may Say It was written from antioch!

Any way Thank you Mathew for your time and comments!Let God bless everybody In Malankara!

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Mathew
What I Mentioned About the Persian Crosses you did not undestand well! Whatever found in Malankara resembles the art/craft of Persia! ot it was persian Model!I did not say it was made in Persia.The Persia connection Between Malankara and Kerala were Trade before Christianity came in Malankara!When St.Thomas Came in Malankare even Jews were there for trade/commerce!read ancient kerala history!

Ravi George said...

IF SOMEONE SAY JESUS is a foreigner, we can challenge, it theologically. Since He is God, it can be convincing to someone who builds his faith in Christ as God (You cannot expect anyone to become a christian unless he believes that JESUS is GOD). So question of Jesus as a foreigner does not arise at all.

St Thomas was sent as the messenger for spreading the Goodnews of Christ and HE WAS ACCEPTED by Indians then. Now nobody can change it. The person St Thomas no loger lives in His earthly Body among us now.

But what about an Antochia patriarch who CLAIMS HE IS THE HEAD OF INDIAN CHRSTIANS?

The natural question which come to the mind of any HINDU is this: Is the practice you follow in other countries too? Russia, Greek, Armenia ,..even in the Africa nations like Eritra or Ethopia.
Why single out India? Fine then, can Indian BECOME A PATRIARCH?

"NO WAY" shouts Jacobites who agree with their masters, the Arabs.
Se here is the difference. INDIANS HAVE NOW COME TO REALISE THEIR NATIONAL IDENTITY just like other nations (your masters too). It was not like this in the past. So that why all cultures got integrated here from abroad.

Christianity was brought here by St Thoasm as per the COMMAND of GOD-CHRIST. Nobody can help it change now.

BUT foerigners are no longer aceptanel like in the past. The reason is simple: IT will not work. You say it because you have a slavery genes which modern Indians do not have. Indisna re travelling everywhere and they know well (Including those in Antioch)

SECONDLY, Lazy and pleasure loving Arab Chrsitian leaders HAVE NO MORAL STRENGTH TO LEAD A NATION LIKE INDIA. IT is simply NOT ACCEPTABLE TO Indians.

If they have enough strenth,let them prove it in their own land first.

Dinner kazhikkunna photo intenet ittal ivide valiya impression onnum undakilla. Innu Indiakkarkku ithellam ariyam,

Hope you will shed your slavery

Ravi George said...

If Arabs insists upon ruling Indians at the cost of the FUTURE OF INDIAN CHRISTIANITY, Christ will handle them.

That is why they are disapearing from the face of the earth!

You will keep crying "ANTIOCHIA ANTIOCHIA ANTIOCHIA ANTIOCHIA even of they are not there

sam said...

Dear Ravi george
It isa not Antiocheans who brought to Christianity in India. The Antiocheans brought West Syriac liturgy/robes only in Malankara.
St.Peter was not The supreme Head of Church in earth after Jesus Acension!
The teachings of antiocheans are against the teachings of St.Peter as well as St.Paul!They are greedy and power hungry people! They are the main/real cause of Church Fued in Malankara!
Jacobites are trying to twist the facts and realities!They are Just Like Muslims Who preach "Jihad".
All jacobites are raising their voices here in MTV blogs.however They will not allow any MOSC guys to express their feelings/concern in their Church medias!
leave them!

mohanmathew said...

if anyone thinks JESUS is a foreign God, then it is mainly because the Christian religion is still led by Foreigners and their cronies.
If you study the History of Christianity in India, you'll find all the issues were created by Foreigners only. Before foreignes came here Christians had very good realtionship with Hindus. This was changed with the coming of Portuguese, other Europeans including the British, Arab Chrstians called Antioch, Americans free churches.

Some are still holding because they have no other way to live without money from here.

All these are the causes of Chrstinity being branded as foreign. Now we are discussing how to change this perspective?

LET all THESE Foreignes leave the country. Then 90 per cent job is done. After that Christinity will slowly become an Indian faith

LEAVE INDIAN CHRISTINITY to INDIANS. (God will the rest)> Then ONLY you'll find Indians think Christianity is suitable for Indians too.

What will happen foreigners are going to be here for another century. Let Indians coem to faith by themslves. Sirs, We do not need foreigners for this job

Mathew said...

Dear Rinsam,

I can ascertain with all certainity that my great grandfathers were followers the throne of Antioch.. I had given you the reason in my last posting.. you have refused to see it.. The edavaka of my great grandparents is included in the list of the churches owing allegience to the Jacobite Patriarch of antioch in the list of churches having attended the synod of diamper. There is need to do more resarch into the belief and traditions of the malankara church prior to 14th century because whatever records we have now is very limited, unclear and ambiguos... Nothing can be claimed with 100 percent certitude..

James Hough in his ' History of christinaity in India " published in 1839 has given the list of churches that participated in the diamper synod of 1599.. The list has been divided into three categories..

1. The churches under latins for the latin converts

2. The churches under the nestorian bishop

3. The churches under the jacobite Patriarch of antioch

If such a clear categorisation is made then it means that there were churches owing allegienace to patriarch of antioch in 1599. If there were such churches in 1599,those might not have come out of nowhere suddenly.. Those should have been in existence for some time.. appol ee antiokia bandham 16th centuryil undaayathaannenkil, antioch patriarchinodu koorulla pallikal engane ivide athinu valare munp undaayi ?

Mathew said...

( rinsam contd..,)

You have told about character assasination... Appol ningalu naazhikaykku naalpathu vattam njangade sabhayile pithaaknamaare vendathinam parayunnathu charecter building inde bhagamaanno ? Njangalu ningade mandatharangal choondikaannichal appol athu character assasination aakum... Pakshe ningalkku enthum parayam... alle ?

Njaan ezhuthiyitulla kaaryangal saaronnu logically thiruthi tharu.. in the light of history and comon sense... appol saarinde logic ine kurichu njaan sammathichu tharaam..

Ee twisting facts and realities okke manasilaakkannamenkil 1909 inu munp malankara sabhayil rachikapetta charithravum, athinu shesham ningade historiansinaal rachikapetta charithravum compare cheythu nokkiyaal mathi... Swantham sabha sthaapakande " mathopadeshasaaram " polum thiruthiya charithramalle ningalkkullathu ?

Ee Arkadiakon enna title ennu muthalaannu malankarayil upayogichu thudangiyathu ennu parayamo ? Athinde roots onnariyanaairunnu ? Thomas sleehede kaalm muthal oraal ivide arkadiakon aayitu undayirunno ?

Mathew said...

Regarding St. Gregorios of Jerusalem you are out to prove he was not from Antioch...

St. Gregorios, before being elevated as the 5th patriarch ( Jerusalem Patriarch ), was the Syrian orthodox metropolitan of Ameed ( Diarbaker in Turkey ). He was ordained as Mor Themotheos Abdel Galeel in 1654 by the Patriarch of Antioch Mor Ignatius Shemaun.

Oru Armenian sabhangathe suriyani sabhede oru bhadrasanathinde metrapolitha aakiyathu bhayangaram thanne.. Saar thanne saarinde kandupiditham vishwasikkunnundo ?

Ini Travancore state manual nokku..

"Two years afterwards, in 1665, the position of the Archdeacon Thomas altered by the arrival on this coast of a Bishop named Gregory, Patriarch of Jerusalem sent by the Jacobite Patriarch of Antioch Ignatius XXIII the quarter whence had come Ahathalla, thirteen
years previously". (Vol II Page 187)

Ningalil chilaru ennodu Sreedhara menon padikan paranjallo... Ee shreedhara Menon parayunnathu Ahathalla Babylonile Jacobite Patriarch ayacha aalaannenna... Travancore state manual parayunnathum athu thanne..

Appol Armenia kaaranalla alle ?

Pinne njaan Paravur palliyile Sustatikonde kaaryam paranjille ? Athum koodi onnu vaayichunokkukka...

EE Armenian "air bubble " appol pottum...

Ivide vanna ella pithaakanmaarum Antiokia kaarayirunnu ennu njangal parayunnilla... 1490 muthal 1653 vare ivide vannirunnathu persian metraanmaarayirunnu.. 1490 kku munp research vennam..

Mathew said...

( Rinsam contd..,)

Njaanum paranjathu atu thanneya.. ivide persian crosses ullathukondu maatram sabha persian aairunnu ennu vishwasikkan budhimuttund... persian crosses were widely used in the eastern half of the church of Antioch also..

And thank ou for your comments also..

May god bless you.... !!!

Mathew said...

Dear Ravi,

Antioch Patriarch orikkalum anagane oru claim nadathunila.. Pakshe aa pithavine thalavanaai angeegarikkunnavarannu aa sthaanam aa pithaavinu vinayathode nalkiyirikunnathu .. Malankara sabhayile nalloru vibhagam aalukal antiochia Patriarch aannu njangade thalavan ennu vishwasichu aprakaaram nadannu varunnundenkil ningalkkentha athil oru skin disease ?


Russians , Greek vare pokenda.. Nammukku canonica bandhamula armenian sabhede kaaryam edukkam...

Armenian sabha is made up of armenians, Lebanese, Turks, Syrians, Palestinians, etc..,. Avide Armenians maatramalla ulathu..

Athupole coptic church has under them egyptians, libyans, black africans, and even British.

Ithu Suriyani sabhede maatram kaaryamalla.

Can Indian become a patriarch nna chodyathinu otta vaakil utharam.. ippozhathe sthithiyil pattilla... as long as the Patriarch is also a temporal leader, it is meaningless to argue Indians cannot become patriarch.. It has socio-political reasons... But a Indian can become a Patriarch once the Patriarch becomes only a spiritual head.. If someday, The Patriarch becomes a spiritual head with two/three catholicoses under him to administer the temporal affairs in different parts of the church.. nothing will stop an Indian from becoming a Patriarch..

ou have always written about lazy and pleasure loving arabs... I am inviting you for a challenge... Let us go together to the patriarchate.. you have to bear our travelling costs and I will bear mine.. I am inviting you to stay one week at the patriarchal monastery at Marat Seydinia outside Damascus.. Then you compare for yourself the lifestyle of the monks and bishops there with the bishops here in india... saar annu ee lifestyline kurichulla prasangam nirthum... ippol maashde avastha ee kinnattile thavalayudetha... athu maaran kinnattil ninnum purathu vannu puramlokam onnu kannannam..

Are you ready to take up the challenge ?

And slavery is in your mind.. you are slave of your low thinking... change that and open your eyes..

Daivam kaazhchashakthi nalkatte.!!!

Mathew said...

Dear Sam,

Antiochians brought christianity to Malankara ennu njangalaarum parayunnilla.. Pakshe ivide Orthodox vishwasam, theology, liturgy okke nilanirthiyathu nooru shathamaanam antiokian pithaakanmaarannu.. alla ennu parayaan sadhikumo ningalkku ? Koonen Kursihu sathyathinu shesham adhikam kaalam kazhiyum munpe persia kaaran Gabriel metran ivide vannallo.. enthe malankara sabhayile maha bhooripaksham adhehathe sweekarikkanjathu ?

St. Peter was the chief of apostles.. Ningalum folow cheyyunna syrian liturgy athaannu parayunnathu... Pallikoodashayude kramam onnu eduthu athile praarthanakal vaayichu nokkuka... sleehar thalavan shemaune patti dharaalam avide parayunnund..

The real cause for the feud in malankara is the attitude of our own malankarites.. athinu mattullavare pazhi chaarunnathu oru escapism mmatramaannu.. ivide undaayittulla ella vibhaagiathaykkum bhinnippinum kaarannam nammal thanne... 1948 varshangalude existencil aake oru swadeshi parishudhane christianitikku sammanikkan saadhicha maahalmyamaannu nammukullathu... Enthina mattullavare kuttam parayunnathu..

To know who is twisting facts compare the history written in malankara church before the vertical split and the ones written after the vertical split... Madopadesha saaram thiruthiyathu oru chinna example maatram.. Vivaha shushrooshayile " Veedinde Bharannakaaran shemaun " ippol Metran kakshi " veedinde kaaval kaaranaayille ?" ithokke chila examples..

Thiruthi thiruthi ippol catholicate inde shathaapthi aghoshikkarayittum athu selucian catholicate anno, Tigrith ile catholicatanno atheyo independent catholicate anno enna conusion theernittilla..

sampariyarathu said...

1. Christianity is certainly not of Indian origin and for that matter did not also originate from Syriac or Greek or Egypt or Rome or other Countries, but from the Jews, who after the ascension of Our LORD were for the first time called Christians in Antioch in Turkey, near the modern city of Antakya in Turkey. The heads of the Churches started moving due to persecution and with the growing demand of the faithful. In this context the head at Antioch relocated to Damascus in Syria. The Catholicate of the East was relocated to Kottayam in Malankara. Though we see numerous Patriarchates in Syria claiming to be that of Antioch origin, there’s only one authentic Patriarchate of Antioch in the Oriental Orthodox Churches which is the Syriac Orthodox Church and though we see numerous Catholicates in Malankara claiming to be under the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch and under the Roman Catholic Church in Rome, there’s only one authentic Catholicate of the East in the Oriental Orthodox Churches which is the Malankara (Indian) Orthodox Church.
Christianity spread to Rome, Greek, Syria, Mediterranean Islands, Egypt, India etc, etc. Can each of these Churches in Rome, Greek, Syria or Egypt start thinking “Are we really a Roman Church or are we really a Greek Church or are we really a Syriac Church or are we really an Egyptian Church or are we really an Indian Church etc, absolutely makes no sense. If we go by the strictest terms of ‘REAL’ then it’s really what Jesus established and His disciples followed and practiced which is “Spirituality” and what we cannot really know now, for all those practices now seen in Churches over the years have been either added or deleted by different Councils from time to time to suit a particular Community, Country or Geographical area and is religion not spirituality in the strict sense.
In the beginning each of the apostolic Churches helped other apostolic Churches in times of difficulty and that had lead to nourishment as well as disputes, as evident from the Epistles of St. Paul. Therefore, Churches had “religious practices” influenced or borrowed from other Churches. The Coptic Church helped the Syriac Church in times of difficulty and the Thaksa of the Syriac Church is not the sole creation of the Syriac Church alone but has been also contributed by the Coptic Church. So, does that mean the Syriac Church have to think “are we really Syrian?” That makes no sense at all. (Sam Pariyarathu)

sampariyarathu said...

2.Authentic historical records show that Christianity came to India through St. Thomas. Now, St. Thomas came to India to teach the word of God and that’s Spirituality. He established seven Churches here in INDIA for the Indians to worship. Ever since, these Churches are Indian and of the Indians and absolutely is ‘REALLY AN INDIAN CHURCH’ and will remain so. Contacting other Churches for help is pure religion. Just because the Indian Church was influenced or happened to borrow religious practices from other Apostolic Churches does not mean that the Indian Church has lost its identity and therefore should begin to ponder over the question “are we really an Indian Church?”
Most of the modern technology that we use in daily life in India is not the sole creation of Indians alone, but has been borrowed as well, influenced from other Communities, Countries and Geographical areas and incorporated to meet our requirements, so as to be in par with the Modern World. In this context, does that mean we have to start thinking “are we really Indian”? You may argue what this has got to do with Church affairs. Well, when we start thinking on the question “are we really Indian Church” in terms of just because we’ve borrowed some practices, this runs concurrent to the thinking “are we really Indian” just because we’ve borrowed something for our daily activities in other spheres of our lives as well.
So long as man exists in this world, there exists a tendency to share, borrow, give, take influence, improve and grow and that’s what society actually is and that’s why people travel and move around. And this is what has been precisely happening to the Churches as well.
Sam Pariyarathu

sampariyarathu said...

3
And man is a social animal. So long as this social attitude does not lead to greed, conquering, control and bossing, it remains healthy.
Our LORD said “Go and make disciples of “ALL NATIONS” and so we need not be so inferior as to think “Are we really an Indian Church”. Should we? Absolutely not! For the LORD send His Apostle Thomas to us to make disciples of us for HIM and we have just to proclaim “My LORD and My God” and lo, the LORD is with us always and unto the end of the ages. So take heart and be of good courage for the LORD our GOD is with us.
SamPariyarathu

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Mathew
I did not call names any of your Holy fathers!secondly There were no history of Malankara church written by Malankara people prior to 1909.The History of Church is made to knwon from trecords kept/written by other people.About Abdul Jaleel Mar Gregorios,the records available from Thozhiyoor Archives are later properly examined and made to understand.There are many things to prove that he was not sent by Antiochean Partriarch.The Nicene Creed he was using regarding the Holy Spirit,the dogma of roman Catholic church!His Kalpana was mentioning about a prayer on Thursday evening which was not in Aantiochean liturgy!
The Udayamperoor synod decisions are made by Arch Bishop Manessis and they only talk about Syrian Christians in malankara, nestorians and not Jacobite or Antiochean followers!
The current liturgy(antiochean liturgy) we are using in Malankara,because of that we are not under the rule of Antiocheans/Syrian orthodox Church!
We Use English language,technology and medicine developed by other people and in other countries!beacause of using antiochean liturgy we are not supposed to Be Followers of PETRINE SUPREMACY! Whch is Anti orthodox and against the teachings of Jesus Christ!Christ gave his authority to all disciples(mathew 28:19-20).Priesthood in Church is not converged through St.Peter alone!

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Mathew
You mentioned about James Hough and his book(1839)and the Data of Latin,Nestore and Jacobite Church In Udayamperoor Synod! This Book was written about 239 years after synod of Udayamperoor, later when the situation in Malankara changed!So the specification of Jacobite cannot be acsertained at all. By that time malankara was in touch with Antiochea becaus of the teachings of Mar Ivanios Who came with Mar Yeldho Baselios mafriana!
Mar Ivanios was the one who spread by then malankara had early connection with Antioch prior to the advent of Portughese(parankikal)and as from A.D.1498 to A.D. 1665 malankara was under Portughese(lain catholics)and A.D.1665 onwards The Antiochean connection/relation re-surfaced in Malankara! He used Pakalomattam Bishops/Methrans to spread this self made story for his self glory and existence in Malankara as he recorded all his ordinations in Malankara in West Syriac.
When Yeldho Baselios came in Malankara they were three in that group(Yeldho Mar Baselios,Mar Ivanios,and Greek speaking Priest of coptic church).This Mar Ivanios who Ordianed MarthomaIII recorded Mar Thoma III as Episcopa of India/Malankara and when he ordained Mar Thoma IV he recoerded that As Presbyter (Kasheesso) for All Indian Church.From this it was clear who were playing around with Malankara church History and Malankara Nazranis!
Another two issues you raised in your response:- St.Peter the chief of Apostles.Yes he was the leader of apostles However he was not head of Apostles!His position among apostles and early church cannot be interpreted as authority over other apostles!Authority and position are two different things! Peter was only a representative of other 11 disciples(mathew 16:18-19,John21:18-19)
Jesus Gave his authority to all disciples equally (mathew 28:19-20,Mark 16:14-18,John20:23)Jesus promised his 12 disciples thrones on his second coming each to judge 12 tribes of Israel!Apart from there is no throne for any disciples!Can you tell me any verses from bible supporting St.Peter's throne In Antioch?
Please also read Revelation 21:10-15,Rev 11:16,Ephes2:20,Galatian2:9
etc etc!
In Rev.3:21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne,as I overcame and sat down with my father on His throne"!

This is exactly all christians shall run for!

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Mathew
You mentioned about James Hough and his book(1839)and the Data of Latin,Nestore and Jacobite Church In Udayamperoor Synod! This Book was written about 239 years after synod of Udayamperoor, later when the situation in Malankara changed!So the specification of Jacobite cannot be acsertained at all. By that time malankara was in touch with Antiochea becaus of the teachings of Mar Ivanios Who came with Mar Yeldho Baselios mafriana!
Mar Ivanios was the one who spread by then malankara had early connection with Antioch prior to the advent of Portughese(parankikal)and as from A.D.1498 to A.D. 1665 malankara was under Portughese(lain catholics)and A.D.1665 onwards The Antiochean connection/relation re-surfaced in Malankara! He used Pakalomattam Bishops/Methrans to spread this self made story for his self glory and existence in Malankara as he recorded all his ordinations in Malankara in West Syriac.
When Yeldho Baselios came in Malankara they were three in that group(Yeldho Mar Baselios,Mar Ivanios,and Greek speaking Priest of coptic church).This Mar Ivanios who Ordianed MarthomaIII recorded Mar Thoma III as Episcopa of India/Malankara and when he ordained Mar Thoma IV he recoerded that As Presbyter (Kasheesso) for All Indian Church.From this it was clear who were playing around with Malankara church History and Malankara Nazranis!
Another two issues you raised in your response:- St.Peter the chief of Apostles.Yes he was the leader of apostles However he was not head of Apostles!His position among apostles and early church cannot be interpreted as authority over other apostles!Authority and position are two different things! Peter was only a representative of other 11 disciples(mathew 16:18-19,John21:18-19)
Jesus Gave his authority to all disciples equally (mathew 28:19-20,Mark 16:14-18,John20:23)Jesus promised his 12 disciples thrones on his second coming each to judge 12 tribes of Israel!Apart from there is no throne for any disciples!Can you tell me any verses from bible supporting St.Peter's throne In Antioch?
Please also read Revelation 21:10-15,Rev 11:16,Ephes2:20,Galatian2:9
etc etc!
In Rev.3:21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne,as I overcame and sat down with my father on His throne"!

This is exactly all christians shall run for!

sam said...

The Primacy of St.Peter as "head of Apostles" had always been taught by Syrian orthodox/Jacobites in their church.Which is Contrary to Jesus Christ's teachings!
This "Primacy"is Man made by twisting the meanings of Verses In Scripture,so as to suite one's need and an answer to Man's greed to exert authority over his fellow being!Luke 9:46-48,22:24-26, and mark 9:33-37 if we read and learn carefully we can understand what eas Jesus Christ taught his disciples!Mathew 16:19 is really mean like this"Peter your faith is like rock,and on this like faith I will build my Church"! One needs a faith as hard as rock in order to establish Christ's church!
Jesus knew all his apostles(except Iscariot) had that faith!That is the unique reason Why Jesus Christ told his disiples "go and preach the gospel to all nations and make disciples of them"Which implies that Jesus Christ 'Authenciated' all his disciples to establish his church to glorify God In all nations!Jesus Christ did not make Peter an overseer over the churches established by other disciples!
St.John 21:15,16,17,these directives Jesus gave to Simon Peter,on his 3rd appearance at sea of Tiberias ,is being used By The Beloved Disciple in his epistle, 1John 2:12,2:13,2:14.All apostles are equal and they have same authority .The Authority and position are different.Jesus saw Peter as representative Of 11 disciples and not their head or chief!It was later The Antiocheans/Roman Catholics, who made Peter As Head and Chief!
Peter no place in New Israel as Moses in Old Israel!
Peter himself Claimed as a co-elder among other Elders of early church(1Peter5:1)

sam said...

Dear Jacobites
There were no mention in Udayamperoor Synod The Churches listed under the name of Jacobite or from Syrian/Antiochean Partriarch. Arch Bishop Manessis first burned all documents which werein East Syriac in North side of Malankara and after the synod he sent Portugheese soldiers to south especially Chengannoor to destroy all Church documents in East Syriac. Therefore who ever prepared the listing did not have any idea about East Syriac History/persian Church (not of Nestore) in Malankara.
Prior to SynodinUdayamperoor,there was a popular liturgy song in Malankara church, Which was written in East syriac which was used by Persian/alexandrea Church in their" Aandu Thaksa"during feast of Pentacost(in 3rd service) which also mentioned by E.M.Philip in his church history book
"Farso Simeon Kepha men Rumi
Uthoma sleeho men aravo du Hindu
Faraso Yoohanon Gabiyo men Epesus"

in Malayalam
"Semeon Kepha romil suvisesha vala Virichu, hindu Deshathu thoma sleehayum vala virichu,Thiranjedukkapetta Yuhanon Ephesusil-um Vala Virichu"
This shows the persian/alexandrean connection of malankara church!
Again Non canonical Bible known as "St.Thomas Bible"there are mention in Synod of Udayamperoor .These clearly shows the malankara persian Church connection before Synod of Udayamperoor!

Ravi George said...

mathew

Njangal parayunnthu ithaanu.

Antiochiaya kkar avarude karyam AADYAM bhangiyaayi nokkatte, enittu njagale nayikkan vaa.

jakobayakkar oru karyam manassilakkanam: Antiochia karude pinnale naam poyaal gathikedu ayirikkum phalam ennathil samshayam venda. Karanam, enthenkilum karngal bhangiyayai cheytha oru charithram avarkkilla. They can only live the life of a parasite.

Reni said...

Anybody in this world will react if someone says against their FATHER< When pope decalred that St Thomas did not coem to Kerala, Syro Malabar sbah protersted and Pope changed hs statement.

But alas! It was Jacobites who ispired Patriarch to to isseu Kalpan that their own father was only an ALMENI.

Ithupole "fatheless" aayi arum parnajittundavilla.

Reni said...

Daivathinnu sthothram, ORTHODOX kar ethra kesukalilum vazhakkilum pettu poyittum, njangalude THANTHAYE njangal apamaanicchittilla, Mazhayatthu nirthiyittilla. Kasera koduthu MUKHYA simhasanatthil irtuthi. AA anugraham njngalkku undu.. ATHUMATHI.

ABHIMAANAMULLA EATHU INDIAN CHRISTINIKKUM ORTHODOX SABHA ORU MARGADEPAM AANU>

Reni said...

When foreigners were freely acceptable in India, centuries back, our forefathers were not so patriotic. They wre just like Hindus who welcomed any foreigner to this land. Bu they learned from their mistakes that it is not good to trust foreignes. So we are a class of patriotic indians who will not accept any foreigner as our head.

You may wonder why this rule is not applicable to Christ and St Thomas.

Christ being God is an Indian to US. Regarding his messenger who brought HIS GOODNEWS, we would prefer an Indian, but Christ made Thomas an Indian when he gave his life for India. But Antiochian patriarchs want ust to take away everything from here for their comforts. Did any Patraich gave his life for Indias? He only decalred that Thomas is not even a pattakkaren.

The diference is clear:
ST Thomas gaev his life to India where as patriarch just want to RULE INDIA

Mathew said...

Dear Rinsam...

saar ippol kaannikkunnathinaannu " Konjanam kuthuka " ennu parayunnathu..

Character assasination ine kurichu njaan pothuvaayittu paranjatha... Ivide ende sabhayile pithaakanmaare vendathinam parayunnahu saar kandille ? ee Rinsam achayan orikkalum ende sabhayile pithaakanmaare vendaathinam paranjittilla ennu nenjathu kai vechu parayaamo ? SOCM forum ilum ICON ilumokke niranja saanidhyamulla rinsam achayan chila poorvakaala postings onnu koode vaayichunokkunnathu nannayirikkum..

Saar veendum oru mandatharam ezhunnullichirikkunnu.. "There were no history of Malankara church written by Malankara people prior to 1909". Ithu vaayikkunnavarokke mandanmaarannennanno saarinde vicharam ?

1. " Malayathulla Suriyani Christiyanikalude sabha charithram " written by Pukadiyil Ittoop writer was first published in 1869 and republished in 1902.

2. " The Indian church of St. Thoams " written by E M Philip was first published in 1908.

ithu randum sabha onnayirunnappol 1909 munp ezhuthapettathum publish cheyyapettathumaannu..

Pinne Kottayam Edavazhikkal philipose acahnde kaivasham kure pazhayakaala kai ezhuthu prathikal iruppundaayirunnu.. Athum historical records thanne.

Historians enu parayumbol Parettineyum cheeranachaneyum maatram kanmunpil kaannunnathukonda inaganeyokke sambhavikkunnathu.

Mathew said...

Thozhiyoorulla St. Gregorios Abdel Jaleel ine kurichulla record aa pithaavinde sustatikonde original aannu.. Athinde nere pakarppaannu vadakkan paravur palliyil sookshichirikkunnathu.. athanno onnu tharjama cheyyichu vaayikkan njaan saarinodu kzhinja posting s aavashyapettathu..

Cheeranachande hypothesis okke appade vishwasikkunnathinu munp daivam free aayittu thannittulla common sense enna sambhavam upayogichu oru independent research nadathu saar.. Athallathe cheeranachan maatram parayunnathu kettal inganeyokke manatharangal ezhunnullikkum..

Oru kaaryam paranjilla.. latin sabhayumaayi samsargamulla armenian sabhaile orangathe enganeyannu Suryiani sabhayile Ameed diocese inde metraan aayittu Shemaun Patriarch bava vaazhichathu ? Athinu cheeranchande explanation onnu velippeduthaamo ?

Udayamperoor decrees tell only about nestorians ennokke saaru parayunnathu jeevithathil orikal polum aa decrees kaannathe vallavarum othi tharunnathu appade vishwasikkunathukondannu..

The decrees are available for study.. Athu eduthu nokkumbol athile decrees 14, 16 and 20 of the third session and 8th decree of the 5th session prathyekam eduthu maatti padikannam.. Appol saarinu njaan parayunna kaaryangal manasilaakum... ivide nestorians maatramalla undaayirunnathu but also Jacobites ennu velippedum..

Liturgy upayogikkunnathukondu nammal antiokia de keezhilaannennu aarenkilum paranjo ? The canonical connection with Antioch is much beyond that.. Veendum british kaarde example tharunnu saar.. saare British kaaru vittupoyi kazhinju Indian bharannagadanayil British raajniye kurishu parayunnundo ? Anganeyanno Ningade 34 ile bharannagadana ? Canon inakathu enthina oru sahodari sabha thalavane kurishu parayunnathu ? Ningal independent alliyo ?

Mathew said...

( rinsam contd ..,.)

Liturgy upayogikkunnathu kondu Petrine supremacy angeegarikkunnilla enokke parayalle saare... Mandatharamaannu athu... appol liturgy il parayunna karyangalokke veruthe oru nerambokkinu parayunnathanno ? St. Ephraim lived in the 4th century... His hymns say a lot about St. peters primacy..

Primacy of st. Peter suriyani sabha padipikunathukondu anti - orthodox ennokke mudra kuthalle ... All oriental churches dont have everythig similar...

Armenian church use unleavened bread - mattulla orthodox churches athupayogikkathathukondu aremenian sabha anti - orthodox aakumo ?

Coptic bishops can be ordained by 12priests - mattulla orthodox churches il ee tradition illathathukondu copts anti - orthodox aakumo ?

Primacy of st. Peter is what the Bible teaches and the early church fathers attested to.. Vere oru blog thudangu .. njaan kaannichu tharaam.

Mathew said...

( Rinsam contd and sam ..., )

One suggestion... aveshathinde purathu maathram ezhutharuth... James Hough did not belong to the malnakara church. He was a protestant missionary.. He has included in appendix the records that he has used to write his book.. The chapter about the Diamper synod and the list of churches has been taken from the minutes of the diamper synod.. That means available records vechittannu James hough church list koduthathu... allathe, he was not writing from his imagination.. Ingane secular historians records vechittu thannittulla history angeegarikkan patulla ennu parayunnathu sathyam angeekarikkan madiyullathukondannu.. Paretinu maatram padichal pora....

James Hough wrote his book 239 ears after the diamper synod.. but if you go through the appendix, ou will see the extensive material that he has used for reference..

Jesus did give authority to al his apostles.. But St. peter was set apart.. there was something special about st.peter.

Saar thanne paranjallo " leader of apostles " ennu.. athuthanne... Leader always has some special authority alle ? athu maatrame syrian ssabha padippikunnullu...

Mathews 16:19 il angane yallallo parayunnathu .. " and on this faith " ennullathu saar kootticherthathalle ? Daivavachanathil koottukayo , kuraykkukayo cheyyunnavan shapikapedum... sookshikannam..

The verse is clear.. Let me use the syriac peshitta translation. The verse is 18 and not 19 " I tell you also that you are Kepha ( stone ), and upon this stone I will build my church ".

Can our Lord be more clear than this ? Avide faith enna "para" yalla... Shemaun eyannu "Para" ennu vilichathu.

Anyway primacy of St. Peter allallo nammude chinthavishayam.. It is a very vast topic...

You have again said that St. peter was not given any special authority..

Check Jh chapter 21: 15-17 .. Jesus is giving St. peter three responsibilities...

1. Feed my lambs
2. feed my sheep
3. Feed my ewes

When understand the usage of terms lambs, sheep and ewes, you will not say that St. peter was not given special authority.

Mathew said...

Dear Sam,

Veendum mandatharam.. I have explained above about the list of churches... Ningalkku athu kayyikunnundenkil, I cant help it... Your acceptance or rejection wont change historical records..

If arch bishop menesis burned all documents, then how do you know that it was in east syriac ?

The listing of churches has been taken from the minutes of the diamper synod and its decrees and not from imagination... Iniyipol achayan diamper synod decrees and minutes also fabricated ennu parayumo ?

E M philip vere chila kaaryangalum paranjittund... athu kandille achayan ?

What I am trying to say is that it was not just nestorians or just antiokians prior to Duamper synod.. There was a presence of both.. The diamper decrees are the most reliable records pointing towards this.

Mathew said...

Dear Ravi and Reni,

Enikkum parayunnallthu ithra maatrameyullu..

Antiokians avarde kaaryangal valare bhangiyayi thanneyannu nadathunnathu... athu nerittu bodhippikkanannu ente koode Syria ykku varaan paranjathu... aa kshannathinu oru parupadi kittiyilla..

Njangal antiokia kaarde koode nilkunnathil ithuvare oru gathikedum njangalkku thonniyittilla..

Appande peru maattunnathaannu fatherless parupaadi.. Njangal ithuvare athu cheythittilla... athu cheythitullavare malankara sabhaykku nannayittu ariiyam.

If you dont want to accept any foregners as your head , who is bothered ? Njangalu ningade purake nadakkunillallo accept cheyyu accept cheyyu annu paranjunkondu... njangal parayunnathu... njangalkku oru vishwasamund, parambaryamund, charithramund... we want to continue that.. ningalkku thaalparyamillenkil just leave us alone.. thats all.... chorinjunkondu purake nadakkunnathu aara ?

Mor Ahatalla muthal ingottu vanittulla antiokian pithaaknmaarude charithram onnu padikkuka.. appol manasilaakum avar cheythitulla kaaryangal...

Go your way and leave us as we are..

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Mathew,
I did not mock any Holy Fathers or Call Names! Whatever difference of opinin may we have,I do respect Them As What I have the Faith In Orthodoxy.
I did Not question The Historians of Malankara Church! But Historians also sometimes makes mistakes as They depend on heresies which are mere beliefs or what they have been taught!
In My Earlier Postings in MTV, I have Clearly Said that eveybody to stop abusing each other (9/02/10)!

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Mathew
Sincerely and Honestly I did not mock anybody in this forum or Any Fathers Of Church. Although Rev. Fr.Cheeran's son Offered me His Father's writings or History through internet I did not Buy it!
My late father Had All history Books,Unfortunately There are not in A state for Use!Some of them were Damaged to an extent which cannot be Used at all.
Coming to the point, I had already intimated people of This Blog Stop use of Factional Fued/Dispute and talk about Christianity In India!(2/9/10).
Although I wrote in Varuis Forums before I did not mock,or belitle your church fathers!
What I had told was L/L H.H. Yakoob III did not follow the right way,the orthodoxy!
Thank you!

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Mathew
God has given us Common Sense!That sense we do not use in proper way!Thatis what I now realised with your ealier and Current Posting in this Blog!Did the History of E.M.Philip and Ittoop riter get An ISI Mark!or They had Thorough Knowledge in English,Syriac,Greek and other Languages!
All Present Historians(after division) are only writing His-Story!Good!The Bible is not His-Story! Even in Bible There is Mention of India!If You Read,Book of Esther! Yeldho FeastRathri /Prabhatha Namaskaram There is a song "Tharaka Porassile Vinjare ariyichu........" Where Was This Porus?.How Come this Song written by Antiochean fathers(?) mention Like That?
A.D. 13th/14Th centuary the Historians Mainly depend on Notes/Journey Report/Travelogue of foreign people,who visited the place,after write History of Makankara Church!In A.D.535 the Traveller Cosmas in his book(greek) Universal Christian topography refer that Church in Malankara had connection with Church In Persia!Cosmas visited south India between A.D.520-525.
And another thing,Abdul Jaleel Mar Gregorios' Stuaticon was written in ArabiC Garzuni,Why?How Come?
In A.D.695 Alexandrean Partriarch mar Yakkoob ordained a priest for Malankara(history of Eastern Church alexandrea Vol.II Page 88).In A.D. 295-300 The Learned Bishop from Basra/persia Mar David Doodi came to Malankara/India and made many as Christians.Mingana,in his Early spread Christianity in India (Page 27)described like this:-during A.D. 5th centuary ,The theological Interprete" Eashodhad"made the interpretation of Roman's Epistle,Eashodhad in his book of Innterpretation of Epistle of Roman'srecorded as a foot note/margin note That He made this Epistle interpretation with the help of Daniel,an indian priest, from Greek to Syrian Language"
Don't jump into conclusions before using common sense!

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Mathew,
The Saint Issue of Malankara Church!Declairing Every now and then Some departed/ late Bishops as Saints of the Church Are not Christ's teachings!These are like Jews Who were making tombs for prophets!(mathew23:26-29).What is The Basic christian Dogma behind this?
We have So many pressing issues which are here,leaving behind them and Declaring Saints For what?
This is divering attention and focusing on something irrevelant!
Had these saints preached gospel among non believers / spread Christianity in Malankara?

Reni said...

Dear Mathew

EM Philip, Ittopp thudangiyavar ezhuthiya charithrngal onnu koodi parishidhikkendthundu karanam annu Niveekaranakkarodu ethirkkan undakkiya charithr apusthakangal ayirunnu enu kettitttundu. Charithram ennathu sathyasandhamayi venam. Enthayallum njan aa pushthakangal vaayichittillathathinaal abhipraayam parayunnilla.
Avarachayan=ne polulla aalukal parayatte
Mathew, Naani

Reni said...

MATHEW


I have only the following request to all the jacobite brothers whom I love most than any other Christians in Malankara

My desire is that they should come back to THE ONE CHURCH in INDIA

1. DEVELOP A SENSE OF IDENTITY BASED ONSELF-RESPECT AND DIGNITY ASSURED BY LORD CHRIST.

2. RESPECT FOR ONE'S OWN CULTUR AND NATIONAL IDENTITY IS IMPORTANT FRO GROWTH. For example: Look at ARABS. Why they do not accept anything from Malankara though the majority of the Church members are from Malankara. Not only that they hav enever contributed anything for the growth of the church. Even if they split us, they will retain their supremacy here.

rinsam2002 said...

Mathew
You or Jacobites do not Follow bible verses in the right sense!The Rock in Bible refers Christ!Christ did not name Simeon Peter as "Rock".In John gospel,21:15 The Risen Christ called him(Peter)as Simeon Son Of Jonah!not Peter or Rock!John chrisostom the early church father said,It is the Faith Of Confession of Peter referred as rock,and church is built upon the faithful confession of Jesus Christ! We do,t want any more blog discussion on this topic and also The Feedinf of Lamb, tending sheep,This is not special authority that was given to Simon Peter alone! Read John 1 Epistle2:12-15,here how he (John)address Faithful/believers of Church!Jesus told Peter To Serve and Nurture others!St.Peter Who had Seen the Risen Christ, Did not follow Christ and he went back to his Old profession Fishing with other disciples!The flock of sheep always have lambs,Ewes etc.They are together like a family which consists father,mother,Children both boys and Girls of different ages! Here use your common sense!
Orthodox Churches never teach Peter is Is "Rock" apart from Syrian orthodox Church!
St.Paul remind us in Titus"avoid foolish disputes,geneologies....as they are unpriftable and uselss(3:9-11). So I better follow this in this issue of St.Peter's so called Big Position/power alleged /claimed by By Jacobites!

Manu said...

Mathew,

Have you actually read James Hough's History of Christianity in India? It doesn't say that that Jacobites participated in the Synod of Diamper? If you want I can give you online link for the book.
If our church had connection with Patriarch of Antioch, why did we send a request to Coptic Orthodox Pope to send a bishop to consecrate a bishop for us after Coonen Cross Oath? We wouldn't have any confusion whatsoever.
I ask you to give one evidence to show that we had any bishop from Antioch before 17th century from an independent source.

Manu said...

Mathew:
Also if the throne of St. Peter was important for us, then why did we have to take Coonen Cross Oath and do all this effor to come out of the Catholic Church. We should have remained under Pope. Afterall, Pope is also in the throne of St. Peter and was considered first among the equals in Nicene Synod and has around 1000 times more faithful than Syriac Orthodox Patriarch.
Also if St. Peter was head of apostles, why is that Coptic Church founded by St. Mark who is a disciple of St. Peter does not come under Syriac Orthodox Church. Alos Armenian church is founded by Apostles Bartholomew and Thaddeus. Orthodox view is that all the disciples are equal. Petrine supremacy is a catholic doctrine and now Syriac Patriach is espousing it to fool the people of Malankara.

Manu said...

Mathew:
I live in US and I have attended the Coptic Church and I found that they remember Eitrean Patriarch in their diptych. I also have attended Syriac Orthodox Church and I noted that they don't remember your Catholicos Baselios Thomas I in their diptych. No matter how much you rever them, they will never consider you as their equal. You will be always treated as their slave. I think we should have some self-confidence in ourselves.

Mathew said...

Dear Rinsam...

Saar ente sabhayile pithaakanmaare adhikshepichittillenkil ok... Pakshe ividuthe pala blogukalilaayi adhikshepangal nadakkunna kaaryam saar sammadikkumallo.. anganathe message kaannumbozhaannu njangalku panniyundaakunnathu..

Saar aadyam paranju njangadethu twisted history annennu... appol njaan paranju twist manasillakkannamenkil bhinnippinu munpulla ( 1909 ) charithram parishodhikkannamennu..... appol saaru paranju 1909 munp charithram rachikkapettitilla ennu .. appol njaan 1909 inu munp rachikapetta randu charithra pustakangalde kaaryam parayukayundaayi... ippol saar parayunnu Historians also make mistake ennu....

Ee mukalil kaannunnathinaannu saare urundukali ennu parayunnathu...

Ethayaalum saarinde urundukaliyiloode kaaryam vyakthamaayallo... all thanks to you.

athinde shesham saar urundu kalide speed kootti paraspara bhandhamillatha vere othiri kaaryankal paranjirikkunnu.... Njaan kshamichu.. anaganeyokke chilappol sambhavichupokunnathu manushya sahajam maathram,..

Njaan saints ine kurichu paranjathum saaru thettu dharichu... Loka christianitykku malankara sabhede contribution de oru alaavu kaannikkan athinde oru kochu example thannu ennu maathrameyullu...

Saar paranjathu pole.. ende sabhayeyum sabha pithaaknmaareyum adhikshepikkunathiloode indian christianitiyude future nannakkan nadakkunna chila thimira rogikal avarude attitude maattiyaal enikku ee raathri muzhuvanum irunnu reply type cheyyenda aavashyam varilla... Njangale njangade paattinu vittekku.

Daivam anugrahikkatte !!!

Mathew said...

Dear Reni,

Charitram parishodhikendtahu Ittoop writerudethum E M philip inde thum maathramalla.. ella charithra pustakankalum independent aayittu thanne parishodhikkannam.. Onnu appaade vishwasichukooda... athinaannu udayavanthamburaan " common sense " ennoru saadhanam thannirikkunnathu.

Pakshe onnu thetti... Ittoop writer de charitthram naveekarannakaare ethirkkan undaakkiyathannennu.. Ittoop saarinde charithram vaayichavar vilayiruthiyittullathu athil naveekaranna chinthaakathiyodu anubhavamaannullathenna..

Pinne ee Ittoop writer udethum, E M philip inde yum pustakangal oru charithra srusti ennathilupari, malankara sabhayude vishwasangalum paarambaryangalum reghapeduthiyirunna amoolya nidhikalaannu... that is why they are so important.

We are ready to be a part of the one church in India... But that church should have the Patriarch as its supreme spiritual head..athu ningalkku sammathamallenkil... ningalkku ningade vazhi, njangalkku njangade vazhi.. upadravikaathirunnal mathram mathi..

Mathew said...

Dear Rinsam..

Entha saare ithu....saaralle kazhinja posting il oru bible ilum illatha Faith enna rockinmel sabha sthaapichu ennu paranjundaakiyathu.. enittu ippol kuttam jacobites inu...

The rock in Bible refers to Christ... Perfect.. I cannot agree with you more..

Now this is what you have to understand... By calling Shemaun Kepha ( peter / Rock ), jesus was giving His name to St. Peter. In Semetic tradition, when you give another person your name, you are also handing over your legacy to him. This is what Jesus was doing by giving Shemaun his name.. The Rock.

This is what the syrian church means by the primacy of St. peter. He was set apart.

Saar onnu paranje .... Bar Yona shemaune , nee parayakunnu ... what was jesus doing here ? Twist cheyalle. Was He calling Shemaun as the Rock ?

Ee Lambs, sheep, ewes okke athu prayogichittulla mattulla sandharbhangalum nokkumbol athinde prasakthi manassilaakum..

Orthodox churches il ella kaaryangalum ella churches inum common alla ennu njaan kazhinja postil paranjirunnu... armenian sabha ozhichu mataarum pulippilaatha appam upayogikkunila..ennu paranju athu anti -orthodox aavilla.

Paulose sleeha Titus inodu paranja athe kaaryam njaanum anusarikkunnu..

God bless !!!

Reni said...

Dear Mathew

Please do not think that we show disrepect to any Church father. We are fighting teh Antiochian mentality to continue their power in India at the great cost of the Future Indian Church which should have a strong Nationalstic Identity. This cannot be compromosed.

But we have respect for Anochian fathers in spite of their wonful Kalpana about St Thomas. We are sure that God will judge those who are behind that sinfully motivated Kalpana to crush the growing Christ's Church in India

Jeevan said...

Dear Mathew,

The book of James Hough is available online for reading,

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=13YOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA40&dq=james+hough+%2B+st+thomas&hl=en&ei=OHqQTOaJB8KB8gags52eDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Can you please guide me, to the statements you have made above, specifically about the decrees of Synod of Diamper, were James Hough mentions about 3 groups of people ( Latins, Nestorians & Jacobites) . Am unable to find any.



Regarding John 21: 15-19

St.Peter rejected Jesus, and he was the only disciple to do so (not counting Judas). He rejected Jesus THREE times, and thus he was not part of the group anymore.

I remember reading an old incident that happened in Egypt. One elder monk sends his feeble junior monk to Alexandria, to have their crafts sold. A cunning Jew, fooled the junior monk, by putting forth his points, about Jesus and thereby claiming that the savior is yet to be born.

The junior monk, being weak in faith and feeble minded with partial mind declares, that the Jew may be correct.

The elder monk a saint comes to know, what had happened and rejects the feeble junior monk from their group. The elder monk pronounces that, the junior has no right to be part of the monastery after rejecting Jesus.

St. Peter also committed the same crime. He rejected Jesus, after walking with him and seeing all the miracles that Jesus performed.

To that particular St. Peter, Jesus is asking again THREE times same question.
"Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"

Jesus never asked the same question to any other disciples because they never rejected him.

The above verse is particularly not handing over any special rights to St.Peter, however bringing him back to the fold.

GEEVAR said...

I don’t think the controversy would have been stopped by my interference.

Though you all know that the discussion going wrong, and bucketing oil to the fire in each comment. Nothing I have to say from my own, but few words from the Holy Bible

We, the Christians should remember both St. Peter and St. Thomas. We should always remember and practice their words and faith. Because, according to Heb: 13:7: Remember them those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.

But don’t forget Jesus Christ

Because according to St. Paul, 1 Corinthians 1:12: Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co:1:13: Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co:3:4: For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co:3:5: Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co: 3:6; I planted, Appollos watered, But God gave the increase.
1Co:3:7: So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Co:3:8: Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co:3:9: For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co:3:10: According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co:3:11: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co:3:22: Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
1Co:3:23: And you are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
Do you need any enlightenment to understand what St. Paul meant?
It won’t be worthy if we spend our money, time, health etc. for quarrelling. The quarrel in the name of spirituality is not Christian.
Did you listen to last Sunday’s (12th September) Evangelione? St. Matthew 5: 28-38; says what’s Christian. How much we have learned by scripture, but no use.

Let’s pray God to guide us through His light and Wisdom.
Prayers and Regards,
Geevar John

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Mathew,
There is no way St.Peter can be another Christ or he can sit in the Office of Christ! This Purely heretic teaching Of Syrian orthodox Church and Jacobites!Peter was not given Christ's Name !Petro means not Rock only "stone "! Stones are required for HouseBuilding/constuction.Read Ephe 2:20,Jesus Christ is the corner stone and apostles and prophets are foundations stones! It was The Faith That Peter Confessed is called Rock, on that Faith church is built,and not on St.Peter.Jesus Christ Is son of LIVING FATHER,the Messiah!Christ is the LIVING STONE(1Peter2:4)!
The apostle Paul rebuked St.Peter face by face on faith matters!(Gal 2:11)How Come the supreme Partriarch was rebuked by St.Paul!
So There are no basis for Petrine Supermacy In OrthodocX Churches!

sampariyarathu said...

To all Jacobites/saint Thomas Baitors(Part I)
It is well-known that the 'Puthencruz Society'(so called followers of Jacob Bardies) suffer from 'Marthoma Syndrome'. In fact, it is an old story. It all started
with Antiochene Patriarch Yakob III's infamous Kalpana No.203/1970 dated
27.6.1970 wherein he argued that St.Thomas didn't have a 'throne', but only
St.Peter had one. He went on to add insult to injury by claming that St.Thomas
didnot even have 'priesthood'.

Well, the Puthenxruz Soceity and its mentors also suffer from another
ailment, viz, 'selective memory'. The very same Patriarch had earlier authored
a book called 'The History of Syrian Church', in which, on page 149, he wrote:"
In the spring of AD 28, Mar Thoma was elevated as Apostle(with Priest hood) along with other
disciples". Again, on page 164 of the same book, it says: "after sowing the
seeds of the Gospel in Malankara, he ordained clergy from four Brahmin families,
Sankarapuri, Pakalomattom, Kalli and Kaliyankal, which had embraced
Christianity." Had the Patriarch forgotten what he had written in his own book?
Besides, one may ask: if Mar Thoma was not High Priest, how could he ordain
priests?

The ancient inscriptions on the steps of the Madbaha of Rakkad
Church under Angamali diocese reads thus: "In 1846, during the reign of Mar
Deevannasios on the throne of St.Thomas, Yuyachim Mar Coorilos visited
Malankara". (Yuyachim Mar Coorilos was an Antiochene Metran, who was elevated to
sainthood by Patriarch Zaka I in 2008). The point is, even in 1846, the throne
of St.Thomas was not disputed. Again, in 1912, Patriarch Abdul Mesiah installed
the First Catholicos of Malankara to 'The Throne of St.Thomas'. In 1958, when
the Catholicos and Patriarch accepted each other by exchanging kalpanas, the
letter-head of the Catholicos' Kalpana clearly spoke of the 'The Throne of
St.Thomas'.
(continue)

sampariyarathu said...

All Jacobites?St.Thomas Baitors (II)

The ancient inscriptions on the steps of the Madbaha of Rakkad
Church under Angamali diocese reads thus: "In 1846, during the reign of Mar
Deevannasios on the throne of St.Thomas, Yuyachim Mar Coorilos visited
Malankara". (Yuyachim Mar Coorilos was an Antiochene Metran, who was elevated to
sainthood by Patriarch Zaka I in 2008). The point is, even in 1846, the throne
of St.Thomas was not disputed. Again, in 1912, Patriarch Abdul Mesiah installed
the First Catholicos of Malankara to 'The Throne of St.Thomas'. In 1958, when
the Catholicos and Patriarch accepted each other by exchanging kalpanas, the
letter-head of the Catholicos' Kalpana clearly spoke of the 'The Throne of
St.Thomas'.

There is yet another affliction, the Puthencruz society suffers
from: viz, 'selective reading'. Let them read the Bible thoroughly and not
selectively. But if they prefer selective reading, I can recommend a few
passages like: Matthew 18:18, Matthew 19:28, 1 Corinthians 4:14-16. They may
also go through the last kalpana of Paulose Mar Athanasios (who was declared a
saint by them a few years back) reproduced on page 89 of a book by
Fr.Kaniyamparambil Cor-episcopa, one of their prominent clergy.

Interestingly, after slandering and maligning Apostle St.Thomas in
every possible manner, the Puthencruz Society has now inserted his name in the
'Thubden' to be read during Qurbana. What a cheeck !

Finally, I would only wish that in order to spite one's opponent, one
should not stoop to make heretical statements.

Mathew said...

Dear Manu and Jeevan,

Santhoshamaayi makkale... ningal randu perenkilum ivide paryunna kaaryangalude sathyavastha anweshichallo...

Njaan oru vela irakkiyathalle.. Arenkilum enthenkilum paranjaal athu swanthmaayi anweshikkathathaannu nammudeyokke kuzhapppam.. At least two of you bothered to check into the truthfulness of the statements made here.. Congrats..

Ini njaan sathyam parayaam... Church list koduthirikunnathu James Hough alla.. It is Thomas Yates...

Refer the book - ' Indian Church History ' by Thomas Yeats pages 134 to 138. The list of the churches are given under the heading - ' A Catalogue of the churches of
the Christians of St. Thomas of Malabar - from the synodical acts at Diamper.

The list is taken from the synodal acts at Diamper..

The jacobite churches are listed under an independent heading.

God Bless !!!

Mathew said...

Dear Manu,

The malankara church did not send request only to Coptic church... We had a practice of sending letters to any eastern churches.

But it was the Patriarch of Antioch who sent a bIshop after Koonen Kurishu is important alle ?

In Kottayam Edavazhikkal achen's collection of old manuscripts there is a letter sent by Anjilimoottil Ittythomman Kathanaar to Kadavil Chandy Kathanaar.... Remember that this was written in the aftermath of Chandy Kathanar's defection to the roman church... The letter starts like this .... " Kadavil chandy kathanaarachen kandennal, Antiokiayile bahumaanapetta Pathreeyarkeesachan ee malankaraykku avakaashiyum avideninnum melpattakaare ayachu namukku vendunna koodashakal thannum pande thotuu nadannu varumbol....... "

Appol 1663 il sabha vishwasichirunnathu antiokia pathriarkeesachanannuu ividuthe avakaashi ennannallo ? It might not have sudenly sprung out from nowhere one fine morning....

Ini James Hough ine parayam... Check the Vol II, appendix. He has given a translation of the decrees of the synod of diamper.. Study all the decrees with a open mind... Ivide Jacobite vishwasavum undaayirunno ennu manasilaakum.

Regarding the throne issue that you have raised... it got prominence in Malankara only through the faction feud... When one faction tried to assert their autocephaly and independence through a throne , the other faction objected... and the discussion on thrones took new meanings .. thats all !!!! Before the faction feud, the throne was not an issue at all.

St. Peter is the head of Apostles ennu parayunnathukondu, al christians to be subjected to his throne enalla parayunnathu... Ee Patriarchate okke administrative ease inu vendi undaakiyathalle... That is the difference in our outlook... The church is Catholic and Universal... we dont consider that Copts are outside the universal church... But Alexandria and Antioch are just two jurisdictions in the church...

Mathew said...

( Manu contd.,.)

St. Peter's primacy is not a catholic doctrine.. It is very much eastern.

The syrian church has its own theological teaching and perspective independent of what others say...

In his book " Demonstration ", the syrian father Aphrahath writes .. " Nun de makanya Yeshu israelinde saakshyathinaayi kallu sthapichu. Nammude karthavaya yeshu sathya paarayaayi ( keepo shaareertho ) shimone thiranjedukkukayum vargankalkku thalayayi avane niyogikkukayum cheythu ...."

He continues in another part .. " Mosha janathinde rakshakaayi jalam purapeduvichu. Karthaavu rakshaykkaayi jathikalde idayil thande sandesham vahikkaan shimone Thiranjeduthu. Avane nammude karthaavu sweekarikkukayum sabhayude adisthana shilayaaki keepa ennu peru vilichu athu vyakthamaakukayum cheythu ".

Again in the part where he explains about the transfiguration, he calls Shimon as " Sabhayude adisthanamaaya shimon keepa ".

Mor Aphrem is called the ' The harp of the Holy spirit '.. In one of his writings ( " Kanyakathwam " ) he writes about St. Peter .. " Shimon keepaye nee anugraheethanaakunnu. Kaarannam nee enthiyirikkunnathu parishudhalmaavu theertha thakolaannu. Ninde sahodara samoohathinde thalayum vakthaavum nee akayaal nee anugraheethanaakunnu. achanchala paarayaaya ninniloodeyannu puthrane sambandhichu pithaavu velipeduthiyathu".

Mor aphrem continues ... " Paarayaya pathrose mahathwam kaankshichilla.. angane avan appostholanmaarude thalavanaayi".

Mathew said...

( Manu contd.,.)

In another of his memros Mor aphrem writes .. " Shimone ende shishya, ninne njan sabhayude adisthaanamaaki vechu. Athinde pannikaaranaayi aadhiyingale ninne njaan mun nirnnayam cheythu. Lokathil enikkayi sabhapnniyunnavarkellam melnottam ninakkaannu. aarenkilum virudhamaayi panniyunnundenkil nee
niyanthrikkannam. Ente upadeshangalude makudam neeyannu. Ente shishyanmaarude thalayum nee thanne. Jeevande anubhavam sakala deshakaarilum nee moolam njaan nalkum. Ente raajyathinde thakolukal ninakkannu njaan thannirikkunnathu. Enikkulla sakalathilum ninne njaan kaaryavicharakanum bharannadhikaariyumaayi vekkunnu "..

Mor Aphrarath and Mor aphrem were the church fathers who lived before the split in christendom and revered as saints by orthodox christians..

iniyippol Pathrosine sleeha thalavan aakiyathukondu avare metran kakshikal thalliparayumo ?

The early church taught that St. Peter is the head of the apostles..

Ini namude liturgy koode onnu nokaaam...

1. In the sacrament of H. matrimony .. " Veedinu bharannam shimonu ... "

2. Pallikoodasha - "..sabhayude adisthanam shimon...."

3. Devalaya shilasthapanam - '... Shimon keepa mel sabha pannithaaneeshan ..."

4. Pattamkoda shushroosha - "..Swargam bhoovennivathan thakol yonathmaja shimoneki ..."

There are lot of examples like this to show that the church from ancient times belived St. Peter to be the chief of apostles and his responsibilities were set apart... Ithu jacobites maathram paranjundaakkunnatho allenkil romakaaril ninnum kadameduthatho alla..

Ithokke marachu vechu aalukale foool cheyyunnathu aarannennu njaan paranju tharendallo ?

I dont know which syriac orthodox church you attended.. but in the SOC churches I have attended, the names of the Syrian patriarch, the coptic pope and the maphrian are remembered..

Ivide equality de oru prashnam udikkunatheyilla..

God bless !!!

Mathew said...

Dear reni,

Tell me how does the canonical bond with antioch hinders the future development of christianity here ? Why christianity needs a nationalistic identity ? is it not against the catholic concept of church so proudly upheld by the ecumenical councils ?

The Jacobite church is under the spiritual guidance of the Patriarch of antioch.. We dont feel any hindrance.. The roman church is under a western pope... Avarude aduthethan kazhiyumo nammalkku ? Their foreign connection has not hindered their progree in any way... Then what is so special about malankara church ?

I told you... We have no problem with a united church.. But that church should have a hierarchy .. with one Patriarch and one Catholicose.

If you dont like that, let us go our ways... Thats all we are saying.

Mathew said...

Dear Jeevan,

I have already clarified regarding the James hough issue above..

The decrees are given as Appendix in Vol II.

It was not just Peter who rejected Jesus. Every apostle other than St. John did so. By running away and hiding when their master was caught, they were rejecting him.. Every Apostle rejected Jesus when he was imprisoned. St. Peter at least showed the courage to follow him and also repented when his folly was realised.

Jesus is not asking St. peter whether he loves him because he rejected him.. Every apostle rejected Jesus and ran away.. Jesus is asking him this before putting on him the responsibility of ..

Feeding His Lambs
Feeding his sheep
Feeding his ewes

God Bless !!!

Mathew said...

Dear Rinsam,

I did not say St. peter is another christ... Saarentha eppozhum nere thalakeezhayi kaannunnathu.

St. Peter was given His name... and by this he was made " avakashi " of His legacy. I have quoted from early church fathers to make you understand what was this St. peter's seting apart above.. i dont want to repeat again here.

the words petros and petra were synonyms in first century Greek. They meant "small stone" and "large rock" in some ancient Greek poetry, centuries before the time of Christ. But that distinction had disappeared from the language by the time Matthew’s Gospel was written in Greek. The difference in meaning can only be found in Attic Greek, but the New Testament was written in Koine Greek — an entirely different dialect. In Koine Greek, both petros and petra simply meant "rock." If Jesus had wanted to call Simon a small stone, the Greek lithos would have been used.

Now let us go to aramaic because that was the language in which Jesus spoke to Simon. The menaing will be more clear there..

In aramaic, we see that Jesus called Simon as "Kepha". "Kepha" means a rock, the same as petra. It doesn’t mean stone or a pebble.

What Jesus said to Simon in Matthew 16:18 was this: "You are Kepha" meaning " you are the rock "..

Mathew said...

( rinsam contd..,. )

Also check the structure of the narative of this particular incident.. It in no way downplays St. Peter's role.

Look at the way Matthew 16:15-19 is structured.

After Peter gives a confession about the identity of Jesus, the Lord does the same in return for Peter.

Jesus does not say,"Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are a stone and on this rock I will build my Church. . . . I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus is giving Peter a three-fold blessing, including the gift of the keys to the kingdom. Jesus is installing Peter as a form of chief steward or prime minister under the King of Kings by giving him the keys to the kingdom.

As can be seen in Isaiah 22:22, kings in the Old Testament appointed a chief steward to serve under them in a position of great authority to rule over the inhabitants of the kingdom. Jesus quotes almost verbatum from this passage in Isaiah, and so it is clear what he has in mind. He is raising Peter up as a father figure to the household of faith (Is. 22:21), to lead them and guide the flock (John 21:15-17).

The rock was the faith which St. Peter bconfessed ennu saaru prove cheyyu.. angane nammude karthaavu oridathum paranjittilla. Vedapustakathil kootti kurakkal nadathalle.. shapikkapedum.

St. Paul rebuked St. Peter for a valid reason and this was because the church teaches that all human beings are fallible and none is infallible. If the chief of apostles erred, there is nothing wrong in he being corrected.

Petrine primacy in eastern christianity de kaaryam I have shown through some writings of Mor Aphrem earlier..

Ini nngalkku angeekarikkan prayasamundaakum.. athenikku manasilaakum.

God Bless !!!

Mathew said...

Dear Sam,

We dont suffer from any sort of syndrome.. ee kochiyile P V mathews achayaneyum sam achayaneyum amma iratta pettathanno ? message kandappol angane thonni..

anyway...

HH Yakoub III 's kalpana is another widely misused document.. Only one thing I can say here... St. Thomas being an apostle is much beyond the kappiar, sexton arguments.

Pinne saar rakkad pallide inscription il oru krithrimam kaannichu... ingane manapoorvam aalukale nunna padippikkunnathokke moshamalle ? karthavappachan shikshikkum...

Rakkad inscription is something like this....

" "During the time of Patriarch Moran Mar Ignatius Yakob 11,
Maphrian Mar Baselius Bahnam and Mar Kurilos Yuyakim who was on the throne of St. Thomas the Apostle of Malabar, in the year of our Lord 1857, on the mid-lent day 13the Meenam, Patriarch Gregorios V of Jerusalem alias Abded Nuharo of Uraha arrived at this Church."

Ithaannu athinde sheri pakarppu...

Saar avidunu St. Koorilose thirumeniye thaazhe irakki Mor divannasios ine throne il kayatti... Ingane mrugeeyavum paishaachikavumaayi pravarthikaamo ?

Raakkad palliyil parayunnathu, malankara marthomade simhasanathil irikunnathu oru videshi metran annenna.. appol pinne enthonnu autocephaly ?

Abded messiah kku ningal paranju kodukkunnathu appade anusarikaanalle pattumayirunnullu..

Pinne 1958 ile kaaryam ... Kallassery bavede Simhasanam, 1959 april 9th inu ayacha Yakoub III bavayude kalpanayil chodyam cheythirunnu... But we see that gradually the use of st. Thomas throne reduced and from the time of Mor augen it stopped altogether.

God Bless !!!

rinsam2002 said...

dear Mathew
I do not understand what you are talking.Jesus Is The Rock! Son Of Johna is Simeon,who was called Peter By Jesus!It Is Tha Faith Of Rock Jesus built his Church!And Not On Peter himself!The Risen Christ Called Peter at The Shore Of Tiberias Sea as "Bar Johna Simeon",(John 21:15-19)three times!The reason Peter denied Jesus Three times prior to crucification!
Peter himself gave Jesus assurance that he will never betray Jesus and he will go with Jesus to Prison or in death!The same Peter Not Only rejected/denied Jesus but also deserted him (Jesus)after his resurrection And went back to his old profession of fishing!Now Jesus called Him 3times as SON Of JONAH!which means Unsteady/shaken(whichmeansinMalayalam "Sthirathayillatthavan/Asthiran/urappillathavan)person!Here he(Peter) was restored!He was Not given any Head Authority/overseer position among apostles!However he(st.Peter)was a leader of apostles!Peter Repented thoroughly when he realised his mistake.It was due his thorough repentance Jesus made him the represntative of the disciples and entrusted with the responsiblity of oh leading the sheep!
In Acts 1:16-20) St.Peter Talked about Iscariot Jude,quoting book of psalms"Let Another takes his office"The Greek word"Episkope" here rendered office!Lierally it refers the apostolic position of overseer!If Iscariot Jude Lost his Position,it was replaced by Matthias!therefore all apostles were having the same position in Early Church!This Is Oriental orthodox faith!

Manu said...

Matthew:
If throne of St. Peter was with Syriac Orthodox Patriarch, then why is that Coptic Orthodox Pope and Armenian Catholicose does not come under Syriac Orthodox Patriarch? The doctrine of Petrine supremacy should also be known to them?
I attended St. Ephraim Syriac Orthodox Church, Burbank, CA in 2007. They mentioned of only Syriac and Coptic Patriarch and then their own bishop in the diptych.
The church comes under the Diocese of Western US (http://www.soc-wus.org/) If you look at the worship section, you can see their liturgy. They mention Mar Ignatius but no mention of mar baselios. I don't know whether they changed it now.
The problem with Ephrem is that I have read the Hymnns of Ephraim the Syrian published by Oxford and other publishers. None of those hymns matches with hymns that we see in our worship book. I also hear there are lot of psuedoepigraphical works of Ephraim the Syrian. I don't more about Apraphath. Can you send me an online link saying more about him? I cannot find any information about him.
As far as I have found, first time the Petrine supremacy was announced was in the Council of Rome held at AD 382 which was only attended by latin bishops. That decison was against the decision of Ecumenical Council of Constantinople in AD 381 which said each bishop has no authority outside their jurisdiction and rejected the supremacy of Pope over other eastern bishops and said Pope can only be accorded the status of first among equals and nothing more than that.

Mathew said...

Dear Rinsam..

Please show me in the verse where is says, The church is built on the rock of faith.. Can you reconcile your finding with the structure of the narrrative ?

Then I will accept.

When Jesus was caught, all apostles deserted him.. So it was not just St. Peter. And when he went fishing, others also were with him.. it was not Peter alone who returned to fishing.

And inspite of all this, if Jesus specifically called Peter, he was considered something apart from the others.... Like when the children in the house are caught doing a mischief, it is the eldest who will be questioned and reprimanded.. alle ?

Saar Rock is faith ennu aa verse il koodi prove cheyyu.. njaan sammathikaam.

God bless !!!

Mathew said...

Dear Manu,

Again you have misunderstood the Petrine primacy with individual jurisdiction of churches... Unlike Roman church, the syrian church does not teach that just because The Patriarch is the successor of St. Peter, all christendom should submit to him... These administrative jusrisdictions okke administrative ease inu undaakiyathalle..? Until chalcedon, the church was one. Athu kazhinju, aalum prathaapavum koodiyappol oro jurisdictions athinde vazhikku poyi... athokke political aayitulla kaaryangalalle.

The Burbank issue may be because of the lack of uniformity in our church.. After Catholicose Baselios Paulose II bava departed, inspite of the directive from the episcopal synod not to remember the name Baselios in the thubden, some churches continued to remember the name.. In some churches, the name of Perumbilly thrumeni was remembered in place of Baselios.... I have seen metran Kakshi chuches even now without st. Thomas in the 4th thubden and parumala thirumeni in the 5th thubden. athokke uniformity illathathinde kuzhappamaannu... indivual cases eduthittu generalise cheyyan pattumo ?

Ephraim indeyum matu pithaakanmaarudeyum hymns njaan suriyani yilullathu ayachu tharaam... Pls give me your mail ID... Nannayittu suriyani ariyavunna aarekondenkilum tharjama cheyyichu vaayikkuka.

God bless !!!

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Mathew,It is the Common sense you have to use When read the Bible!It Is The Faith of Rock Jesus Built his Church!and not on Simon Peter/kepha!This was clearly taught by John Chrisostom The early Church Father!Now Syrian Orthodox Philosophy of "Kepha/Peter is the rock which Christ built his church is Not orientalOrthodox Faith.The Faith of Confession of Peter I have already told you in this Blog!YOU ARE Christ'The SON OF LIVING GOD!
and Jesus replied It Was His Father(living God)who revealed This to SimonPeter!and not flesh and blood!
Peter is a man of Flesh and Blood!
The Keys Of Kingdom are referring the Faith In Christ Which opens the door of new life( in Christ)and rejection of faith in Christ,closes the door on life in Christ!
It is Not Peter himself going to open the door of Kingdom for Christians> The Keys are (rev.3:7)is also mentioned in Isiah 22:22This refers The One Whom May Judge in God's name and admit or exclude from the city of David(new Jerusalem)As Jesus is the door to the father He is Having the Keys!
If These verses in Mathew16:16-19 were significant or more related toSt. Peter's authority,It should have been told by Mark In Gospel(as Mark was disciple of st.Peter)or John in his Gospel!

Jeevan said...

Dear Mathew,

Can you please suggest, as to where is Jacobite vishwahsam in the decrees of Diamper Synod?

Checking through the decrees one by one, the church before the Portuguese invasion was not even half way near the correct Christian faith.

95% of the decrees of Diamper Synod are forbidding heathen practices. (Like Polygamy, idol worship etc etc)

Decree 1 from Session 5 ( Page 583), says “ The Syrian missals to be altered in conformity to the doctrine of Rome”.

Upon elaborately reading the decree, it talks about schematic Nestorians and the Persian church and not about the Antiochian church. Here Syrian means East Syrian. The elaboration of this specific decree nowhere speaks about Antiochian church.

Decree 2 from Session 5 says, “The missal of Nestoriusm Thedorus and Diodorus to be burned”.

All the decrees of Diamper Synod talks about removing the PERSIAN/NESTORIAN practices and nothing explicitly about Antioch.

Thomas Yates, it is not available online to verify, however, none of the other secular historians speak anything about the antiochean church. Not seen any in the books of James Hough, Stephen Neil, GT Mackenzie (catholic), Assemani (catholic) etc. I presume Yates is the only person who wrote so.


St Peter,

Running for life seeing armed soldiers and rejecting him openly are too different things. Also in semantic tradition there is nothing like naming a person and giving his legacy to him. If that was so, we could have seen plenty of such evidences in Bible. Can you prove with a similar example from the Bible?

Manu said...

Mathew:
Only thing I wanted to say was that Petrine supremacy (rock and keys) was advanced by Catholic church only to claim authority over the entire christendom. There is no other reason for advancing that doctrine. It was clear why they brought up that doctrine in Council of Rome. You can't find any other church records which say about it.
I am not contesting about your claim about the Hymns of Ephrem the Syrian. But those hymns are found only in Syriac and no other independent sources of hymns of Ephrem the Syrian. We cannot rule out the possibility that some of those hymns were added later in the name of Ephrem the Syrian.
But it is a truth that none of the Orthodox (both Eastern and Oriental) churches ever accepted the doctrine of Petrine Supremacy. They acknowledge that Peter was the chief of apostles but concept about the rock and alone holds the keys to heaven was first advanced in Council of Rome and there is no record to show that any of the Orthodox churches or any of the Ecumenical synods after that have accepted that doctrine. For the first time a Orthodox Patriarch who echoed the same doctrine was Syriac Patriarch. You go and ask any of the Coptic /Armenian Priests or bishops whether they believe in the doctrine of Petrine supremacy, rock and keys to heaven and whether it is a Orthodox doctrine.

Reni said...

Take any discussion: The jacobites will drive you to old unwanted things. THE DO NOT WANT US TO HAVE A FUTURE. They want us to just drag in the old mud so that our children too live as slaves ANTIOCH.

IF WE WANT ORTHODOXY TO THRIVE IN INDIA, DUPM THIS PAST UGLY THINGS and build a renewed Church based on true Orthodox faith. We don't need any salmoosa for doing it. DO WE?

Reni said...

JACOBITE STRATEGY: IF YOU CAN"T BEAT THEM, confuse them with the PAST

Manu said...

Infact I asked one of the Syriac Orthodox laity (who is my good friend too) about the non-inclusion of Catholicos in the diptych. What he answered then was, for them Catholicos is the bishop of Malankara diocese, and hence since they don't belong to that diocese they don't need to remember him in the diptych. Initially I thought he was just making up an answer. Then when I actually checked their Constitution after I got this information from Malankara Orthodox TV website, I understood what he said was exactly correct.

Mathew said...

Dear Rinsam..

Ethra common sense upayogichittum " Faith enna rock" budhiyil theliyunilla.. Angane nammude Karthaavu oridathum paranjittumilla.

The verse is very clear... " You are kepha ( Rock ) and on this kepha ( rock ) i shall build my church '.

It is not the first time Jesus called Shemaun as Kepha ( rock ). Even before he was called for the discipleship, we see Jesus calling him Kepha ( rock ) in Jh chapter1.

Saar ithuvare evidunnannu faith enna word thirukki kayattiyathu ennu paranjilla. Anagne oru kaaryam Karthaavu parayunilla..

Ini for the sake of argument faith ennu consider cheythalum, aa passage inde narrative structure umaayittu ' faith ' enna prayogam reconcile cheyyan pattilla..

You are depending on the byzantine / eastern orthodox interpretation to establish your viewpoint..

Athinte kaaryavum paranjutharam..

Rome went to one extreme that Pope is the universal authority because he is seated on the throne of St. Peter. To establish the roman church went to extremist views and tried to force other eastern churhes to acccept this.

But on the other extreme, the eastern orthodox churches did not deem it necessary to submit to the authority of the pope and considered themselves outside his authority.

Now romans used Math 16:18 to prove that St. Peter is the rock on which church is built and hence the pope as the succcessor of St. Peter is that authority..

The byzantines to refute this line of argument brought in the interpretation that the rock is the faith.

Ingane ee ' faith ' enna interpretation has its origin here...

Metran kakshis, who have niether a history, liturgy, theology nor christology of their own have a habit of borrowing things from other churches wherever it seems profitable for them..

Angane byzantine tradition il ninnum borrow cheyhta sambhavamaannu ' faith enna para '..

Jesus's words are very clear.. swantham avakaashavaadam sthapikkuvaan Karthaavinde thiruvachanathil kootti cherkamo ?

Pinne important aayitulla eela kaaryangalum ella gospels ilum orupole parayunnundo saare ? Puthiya niyamathinde ghatanaye kurichu ini nammal tharkikkanno ?

God bless !!!

Mathew said...

Dear Jeevan,

The decrees of diamper synod is very vast.. there are over 200 decrees in 9 sessions.

I wanted to explain to you.. pakshe athinde online link nokiyittu kittunilla.. Please, if you have a online link for the decrees please send it to me.. Njaan kaanichu tharaam.

95 % of decrees are pointing towards social evils ennulathu roman historians il ninnum kadamedutha vaakannu.. athoralpam athishayokthiyayi poyi..

I dont know if Thomas Yates is available online.. SOCM had earlier digitised this and published.. I tried to acces it but the link is not working presently.. The only option is to get a copy of the same..

Pinne ella historians um ella kaaryangalum parayarilla.. Pala charithra rekhakalum koottiyiruthi kandu pidikkendathu vaayanakkarande chumathala.. St. Thomas keralathil vannu ennu parayunna historians ine kaalum adhikam historians parayunnathu st. thomas vannilla ennnannu... Ennalum namal st. thomas vannu ennu vishwasikkunille ? athupole..

There was a difference between st. Peter and the other disciples.. While the others ran away at the first strike, St. peter took a chance... He folowed his master.. That shows his love.. He did not desert his master at the first instant.. But when confronted he rejected... the same thing would have happened with any other disciple.. The thing to note is that St. Peter took the risk while the others rejected and ran away..

The other disciples are more guilty than St. peter.

Pinne semetic tradition....anaganeyilla ennu aaru paranju ? By giving another person his name, the other person is made " avakaashi " in his legacy... Arivullavarodu chodichu nokku .. paranju tharum.

The thing to note here is that Jesus called Shemaun " kepha " meaning the rock and in the next part he says on this Kepha I will build my c hurch.

No confusion !!!

Mathew said...

Dear Manu,

The Petrine supremacy was not advanced by the roman church.. I have to correct you a little there...

The Petrine supremacy was exaggerated by the roman church. And that was done to claim authority over the entire christendom. This was one extreme..

Now the byzantines went to the other extreme of totally rejecting the authority given to St. peter by our Lord.

Now Metran kakshis, who shamelessly borrow any teachings which seems to be momentarily profitable to them, borrowed this from the byzantines. Thats all !!!

But see the contradiction..... While teaching the byzantine interpretation on this, they continue to call St. peter the head of apostles and the foundation of their church in their liturgy.

Aake confusion allle ?

Now you are doubting the hymns of Mor Ephraim.. I cant help you... Try to get a copy of his translated work " de vergenite " ( I am not sure of the spelling )... You will find what I am talking about..

Ingane interpret cheyyan thudangiyal, vedapustakathile kaaryangalum aarenkilum kootti cherthathalla ennu parayaan pattumo ?

Enna Manu paranju tharu.... Why did Jesus have to call Shemaun by the name Kepha ? Rock ? and can you explain to me the same without disturbing the context ?

Njaan oru kaaryam paranjirunnu... everything is not common to all orthodox churches ennu...

Pulipilatha appam orthodox concept anno ? then how can armenians be orthodox ?

12 pattakaaru metraane vaazhikkunnathu ella orthodox canon ilum undo ? illenkil how can copts be called orthodox ?

The teachings of a particular church has to be studied in the light of the history, theology and liturgy of that church.... allathe byzantine theologiyiloode oriental theology vilayirutharuth..

You will fail badly.

God bless !!!

sampariyarathu said...

Simeon Peter The Rock? Rock of Faith?
Matt. 16:18 you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church. This is one of the most controversial and debated passages in all of Scripture. Roman Catholics have appealed to this passage to defend the idea that Peter was the first pope. The key question concerns Peter's relationship to “this rock.” In Greek, “Peter” is Petros (“stone”), which is related to petra (“rock”). The other NT name of Peter, Cephas (cf. John 1:42; 1 Cor. 1:12), is the Aramaic equivalent: kepha’ means “rock,” and translates in Greek as Kēphas. “This rock” has been variously interpreted as referring to (1) Peter's confession; or (2) Christ and his teachings. The role of confession as they made a similar confession (see Eph. 2:20, where the church is built on all the apostles; cf. Rev. 21:14). Jesus' statement did not mean that Peter would have greater authority than the other apostles (indeed, Paul corrects him publicly in Gal. 2:11–14), nor did it mean that he would be infallible in his teaching (Jesus rebukes him in Matt. 16:23), nor did it imply anything about a special office for Peter or successors to such an office. Certainly in the first half of Acts Peter appears as the spokesman and leader of the Jerusalem church, but he is still “sent” by other apostles to Samaria (Acts 8:14), and he has to give an account of his actions to the Jerusalem church (Acts 11:1–18). Peter is presented as having only one voice at the Jerusalem council, and James has the decisive final word (Acts 15:7–21). And, though Peter certainly has a central role in the establishment of the church, he disappears from the Acts narrative after Acts 16. “Church” (Gk. ekklēsia) is used only here and in Matt. 18:17 in the Gospels. Jesus points ahead to the time when his disciples, his family of faith (12:48–50), will be called “my church.” Jesus will build his church, and though it is founded on the apostles and the prophets, “Christ Jesus himself [is] the cornerstone” (Eph. 2:20). Some scholars object that Jesus could not have foreseen the later emergence of the “church” at this time, but the use of Greek ekklēsia to refer to God's “called out” people has substantial background in the Septuagint (e.g., Deut. 9:10; 31:30; 1 Sam. 17:47; 1 Kings 8:14). Jesus is predicting that he will build a community of believers who follow him. This “called out” community would soon become known as “the church,” a separate community of believers, as described in the book of Acts. gates of hell (Gk. hadēs, “Hades”; cf. “gates of Sheol” [Isa. 38:10]; “gates of death” [Job 38:17; Ps. 9:13; 107:18]). “Gates” were essential for a city's security and power. Hades, or Sheol, is the realm of the dead. Death will not overpower the church.
If Peter Was The rock upon Church is being Built how come Jesus himself called selected St.Paul?
St.Paul was baptisized by Ananius and ordained(became priests) By SimeontheNiger,Manaen,Lucias Of Cyrene! Can anybody(jacobites) tell us Ordination By St.Peter from Bible?
Sampariyarathu

sampariyarathu said...

Matt. 16:18 you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church. This is one of the most controversial and debated passages in all of Scripture. Roman Catholics have appealed to this passage to defend the idea that Peter was the first pope. The key question concerns Peter's relationship to “this rock.” In Greek, “Peter” is Petros (“stone”), which is related to petra (“rock”). The other NT name of Peter, Cephas (cf. John 1:42; 1 Cor. 1:12), is the Aramaic equivalent: kepha’ means “rock,” and translates in Greek as Kēphas. “This rock” has been variously interpreted as referring to (1) Peter's confession; or (2) Christ and his teachings. The role of confession as they made a similar confession (see Eph. 2:20, where the church is built on all the apostles; cf. Rev. 21:14). Jesus' statement did not mean that Peter would have greater authority than the other apostles (indeed, Paul corrects him publicly in Gal. 2:11–14), nor did it mean that he would be infallible in his teaching (Jesus rebukes him in Matt. 16:23), nor did it imply anything about a special office for Peter or successors to such an office. Certainly in the first half of Acts Peter appears as the spokesman and leader of the Jerusalem church, but he is still “sent” by other apostles to Samaria (Acts 8:14), and he has to give an account of his actions to the Jerusalem church (Acts 11:1–18). Peter is presented as having only one voice at the Jerusalem council, and James has the decisive final word (Acts 15:7–21). And, though Peter certainly has a central role in the establishment of the church, he disappears from the Acts narrative after Acts 16. “Church” (Gk. ekklēsia) is used only here and in Matt. 18:17 in the Gospels. Jesus points ahead to the time when his disciples, his family of faith (12:48–50), will be called “my church.” Jesus will build his church, and though it is founded on the apostles and the prophets, “Christ Jesus himself [is] the cornerstone” (Eph. 2:20). Some scholars object that Jesus could not have foreseen the later emergence of the “church” at this time, but the use of Greek ekklēsia to refer to God's “called out” people has substantial background in the Septuagint (e.g., Deut. 9:10; 31:30; 1 Sam. 17:47; 1 Kings 8:14). Jesus is predicting that he will build a community of believers who follow him. (continue...)

sampariyarathu said...

Matt. 16:18 you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church. This is one of the most controversial and debated passages in all of Scripture. Roman Catholics have appealed to this passage to defend the idea that Peter was the first pope. The key question concerns Peter's relationship to “this rock.” In Greek, “Peter” is Petros (“stone”), which is related to petra (“rock”). The other NT name of Peter, Cephas (cf. John 1:42; 1 Cor. 1:12), is the Aramaic equivalent: kepha’ means “rock,” and translates in Greek as Kēphas. “This rock” has been variously interpreted as referring to (1) Peter's confession; or (2) Christ and his teachings. The role of confession as they made a similar confession (see Eph. 2:20, where the church is built on all the apostles; cf. Rev. 21:14). Jesus' statement did not mean that Peter would have greater authority than the other apostles (indeed, Paul corrects him publicly in Gal. 2:11–14), nor did it mean that he would be infallible in his teaching (Jesus rebukes him in Matt. 16:23), nor did it imply anything about a special office for Peter or successors to such an office. Certainly in the first half of Acts Peter appears as the spokesman and leader of the Jerusalem church, but he is still “sent” by other apostles to Samaria (Acts 8:14), and he has to give an account of his actions to the Jerusalem church (Acts 11:1–18). Peter is presented as having only one voice at the Jerusalem council, and James has the decisive final word (Acts 15:7–21). And, though Peter certainly has a central role in the establishment of the church, he disappears from the Acts narrative after Acts 16. “Church” (Gk. ekklēsia) is used only here and in Matt. 18:17 in the Gospels. Jesus points ahead to the time when his disciples, his family of faith (12:48–50), will be called “my church.” Jesus will build his church, and though it is founded on the apostles and the prophets, “Christ Jesus himself [is] the cornerstone” (Eph. 2:20). Some scholars object that Jesus could not have foreseen the later emergence of the “church” at this time, but the use of Greek ekklēsia to refer to God's “called out” people has substantial background in the Septuagint (e.g., Deut. 9:10; 31:30; 1 Sam. 17:47; 1 Kings 8:14). Jesus is predicting that he will build a community of believers who follow him. (continue...)

sampariyarathu said...

Peter The Rock/or rock of faith(II)
This “called out” community would soon become known as “the church,” a separate community of believers, as described in the book of Acts. gates of hell (Gk. hadēs, “Hades”; cf. “gates of Sheol” [Isa. 38:10]; “gates of death” [Job 38:17; Ps. 9:13; 107:18]). “Gates” were essential for a city's security and power. Hades, or Sheol, is the realm of the dead. Death will not overpower the church.
How many people were ordained by St.Peter! If St.Peter was first Supreme Partriarch,why St.Paul,and Barnabas was prdained by Simeon the Niger,Lucias of Cyrene,and Manaen? Who ordained St.James the first bishop of Jerusalem?

Manu said...

Matthew:
How can you say that it was Byzantine interpretation? Ecumenical Synod of Constantinople that rejected Papal claims were attended by Patriarch Timothy of Alexandria and Patriarch Miletius of Antioch. If the Patriarch Miletius had a different opinion he would have expressed it then. He was among the Eastern bishops that signed in the Ecumenical synod. It was against this decision of Eastern bishops that Pope Damasus passed his decree in Council of Rome next year.
Its a doctrine that is rejected not only Byzantine churches, but also Coptic and Armenian churches in the Oriental Orthodox Communion. Syriac Church is upholding that doctrine for its definite advantages it gain from supporing that doctrine just like Roman Catholic Church. Why should we in Malankara should have anything to do with it?
Coming to your statement about rock. What is the context in which Jesus called him the rock? Due to the faith confession he did about Jesus in the previous verse. What is the faith confession on which the Christian Church is built? That "Jesus is the Christ, living Son of God" That exactly was Peter's confession. You can see this St. John Chrysostom's homilies. This all that I want to tell you here. You are free to believe in whatever way you want. I don't care.

Manu said...

Mathew:
You have to remember it was a time when people around had doubt about whether Jesus was actually the Christ and Son of God. It was at that time, Peter unequivocally proclaimed about the actual faith in Jesus. This is the faith that all Christians has to have even in the time of persecution. If your faith is not strong as a rock but is weak, you will deny your faith when it is tested and Christian church will never be materialised. Christian church was built on the strong faith that early christians had on the divinity of Jesus Christ. That helped them pass through all persecutions and preserve their faith to next generation and hence church stands till today strong. Even now, if our faith is not strong as rock, we will denounce our faith when modern atheists come up with arguments against Jesus Christ and his divinity and christian church will crumble.

Mathew said...

Dear Reni,

Start reading from the beginning of the blog.... then you will know who diverted this discussion inspite of the efforts of Mr. Geevarghese to give it a direction.

When you question us, don't we have the right to defend our position ?

Mathew said...

Dear Manu,

Did the ecumenical synod of Constantinople discuss about the Petrine primacy ? In the seven canons attributed to the council of Constantinople, none of them refer to the question of petrine primacy...

The only controversial canon of the council is the elevation of constantinople as a Patriarchate and giving it primacy of honour after Rome.

Even the council of Rome of 382 does not show any debate on the petrine primacy. The council mainly codifies the canonical books of the Bible.

If there was any discussion about petrine primacy at Constantinople, I would love to know about the same.

Unleavened bread is rejected by all orthodox churches Manu... But Armenians use unleavened bread... Is it not anti - orthodoxy ?

I gave you the reason why Byzantines reject petrine primacy..

Unlike the romans, the syrian church while teaching the primacy of st. Peter, does not claim universal jurisdiction. So your arguments that we are trying to gain adavantage is meaningless.

Reagrding rock...Jesus did not call Him rock only then.

Much long before, even before being called to be an Apostle, we see that Jesus calls him Kepha. Read this in John cahpter 1 when his brother Andrew introduces him. There we dont see any proclamation of faith from shimon.

St. aphreminde hymns il kootticherthu ennu manu avakaashapettathupole John Chrysostomous indeyum writings il aarenkilum kootticherthukaannumallo.

In this regard, I prefer to follow st. Aphrem as he lived much before St. John Chrysotom, much closer to the apostolic times and lived in an undivided church.

This is all I want to tell you here. You are free to believe in whatever way you want. I too don't care.

Just like you said.. you are free to beleieve what you want to

rinsam2002 said...

dear Mathew
For you and Jacobites what ever I/we say is opposite/and head turned as tail!If Simeon Peter Was Given Jesus his Legacy(What Legacy?)can you explain that legacy.Jesus called his Disiples from fishing to catch people for christ!You people are only selective in Bible verses. Jesus Called Simeon As Peter one only recorded by two different Gospel writers does not mean he (jesus called him (simon) many times as Kepha!
the church administration of laity/beleivers,Deacon,elder/presbyter,Overseer/bishop are mentioned only in St.Paul's epistle!
Jesus is the Rock!That is the christian fundamental faith!

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Mathew,
The songs copiled by mar Aprem are not correct!They are against the teachings of early apostles/bible.for example:Goodfriday Sleeba worship song of Mor Aprem Bovoosa Stanza 4 are against what Jesus prayed on Cross!Even your people questioned the validity of this song in SOCM forum!Likewise what ever Mor aprem said about Peter in his liturgical songs are in the right sense!Mar aprem was not infallible as he was a monk and deacon of early church!

Mathew said...

Dear Rinsam,

For you metran kakshis whatever I/we say is opposite/ and head turned as tail. What legacy ? The legacy is the stewardship of His church.. The postion of the chief of apostles.. the authority to feed His lambs, sheep and ewes... That is the legacy.

You are very selective in understanding Bible verses.. I did not claim that he was called many times as Kepha.. But the two times he was called Kepha has to be understood in its context and not selectively..

Jesus's ascension is also recorded by only two of the Gospel writers.. So does that mean it was not important ? The four Gospels are complementary to each other and not supplementary.

I am not here to argue whether the songs of Mor Aphrem are true or not.. That is altogether a totally different topic of discussion.. I am saying what the early church fathers taught. When you say Petrine supermacy is a roman doctrine borrowed by syrians, i refute that... and Mor Aphrems hymns are one of the proofs in addition to the liturgy.

God bless !!!

Manu said...

Mathew:
The main decree of Council of Rome was to declare the canon of the New Testament. But its third decree was exclusively about the Primacy of Peter. (Faith of Early Fathers W. A Jurgens). If you want to read online, the link is http://books.google.com/books?id=l62q-d4Wi20C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Faith+of+the+Early+Fathers++By+W.+A.+Jurgens&source=bl&ots=Zc-g8U4bEV&sig=szbFFNp7Le8cM8cGCyXpnoMnjYo&hl=en&ei=B6WTTIyTAcL6lwep_4WpCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Go to page 406, you can see the decree by Pope Damasus regarding Primacy of Peter.
Regarding the council of Constantinople, canons 2,3 4 and 5 was passed against what Pope Damasus wanted at that point of time. Regarding Maximus the Cynic, even though Roman church was on his side at the time of the Council in 381, he changed his mind and condemned him next year. Canons 2 and 3 were totally rejected by legates of Pope Leo I in Council of Chalcedon when they accepted Constantinople Synod decisions.
St. John Chrysostom was the Patriarch of Constantinople (398-404) before the church was divided, he was born in Antioch and student of School of Antioch and present Syriac Orthodox Liturgy is modified form of St. John Chrysostom liturgy.
I agree with you that St.Peter as first among the Apostles and we rever him as such. But our church is founded by Apostle St. Thomas and hence we rever him as our founding father just as Coptic Church revers St. Mark and Armenian Church revers St. Bartholomew and St. Thaddeus as their founding fathers.

rinsam2002 said...

Dear mathew, your blog posting on Mar Aprem(st Ephraem) on St.Peter Supremacy Sept,15th refers.
All those teachings/writings on about Peter are not in Bible!They Anti teachings of Christ/and bible!
Moses was told by Lord to Speak the Rock,and it will give waters!Moses struck the rock twice agsinst the Lord's Order!althogh the rock produced plenty of water for Israel,this has nothing to do with Simon Peter in New Israel!the rock stands for JesusChrist!St.Paul says It was through Jesus Christ,Israel drank water!For The salvation of the whole world Jesus has shed his blood and water on cross at calvary!It was not st.Peter who did that as Peter was not the Lamb of God nor he was the Rock which produced water for Israel in desert!
It was not Moses who produced water from rock.Jesus had chosen 12apostles and gave them authority to preach gospel everywehere to all nations!
therefore there is no basis for this comment"Moses janathinte reksakkayi Jalam purappeduvichu<Karthavu rakshakkai,jathikalude idayil thante sandesham vahikkan Shemone thiranjeduthu!"

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Mathew
I don't think St.Ephraem(mar aprem)taught like what you quoted in this blog!Joshua 9:3-8,Joshua and the people of Israel reaffirm their covenent with Lord according to Mose's instructions.everything in this passage points out Christ,who will unite all people both resident,aliens and those born among them,Jew,gentile,sinner and holy/saint!Joshua wrote on stones the second law of Moses!Christ is the second law of Moses who will fulfill the Laws.(mathew 5:17)
Jesus is the Truth!He is the Way,Life and Resurrection! He is the real and true rock!How come the true rock,Jesus choose Simeon Peter to be The Real rock and appoint as head of tribe(s)/nation(s)!
To me this has no basis in bible or orthodox faith! These are purely Jacobites new teachings by Dr.Athanasius of Moovattupuzha during1994/1995 or new inventions/baseless arguements to fight against MOSC!

Reni said...

UNLESS ECCLESIOLOGY IS REINSTATED IN THE JACOBITE CHURCH, it is heading for a major disaster. But I do not see that change happens there in the near future.

jacobites are fed with OPIUM suplied by Viswasamarakshkan and they are under the effect of it. SO nobody is thinking about FUTURE CHURCH THERE. They are taught so long as they chant "ANTIOCKYAAAA ANTIOCKYAAAA ANTIOCKYAAAA ANTIOCKYAAAA ANTIOCKYAAAA" they have good future. They simply do not know that Antiokya is facing a grave future by continuing this attitude of SUPREMACY.

Antioch needs to FOCUS in their own land. It is very important for them to relive themselves of Indian matters to Indians and tend their own sheep there. WILL THIS EVER hAPPEN?

Reni said...

YES, if just one foreign church declares that NOW INDIAN CHURCH IS MATURE ENOUGH TO TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF HANDLIING THEIR MATTERS, THAT WILL BRING PEACE HERE. THEY TOO WILL DO GOOD TO THEMSELVES.

Ravi George said...

Good Heavens, the posts are nearing 200. HATS OFF TO ALL the partipants.

We have got many good friends like Geogy Abraham, Mathew, Eldhose and Joshy from the jacobite side who presented their argumenst with power. We all have Orthodoxy in our blood, But unfortunately, as pointed out in many posts, it will take a few more generations for Jcobites to realise their national identity. Let us all pray for the good FUTURE OF INDIAN ORTHODOX FAITH.

BUT through discussions, we exchange ideas and appreciate them for their strong support to their church.

CONGRATULATIONS for hitting a DOUBLE CENTURY

Jomon said...

Dear Ravi, I dont think that the concept of national church is christian vision. You know St. Paul declaring that our citizenship is not in earth but in heaven. This is to remind us to come out of the barriers of nationality to a universal brohterhood.
May I know what are the benifits of being a national church instead of being a Witness to India as part of universal Syrian Orthodox Church? (To put in Malayalam pari. Suriyaani orthodox sabhayute bhaagamaayi ninn bhaarathaththil christhiiya dauthyam nirvahikkunnathinekkaal enthellaam gunangngalaanullath oru bhaarathiiya swathanthra sabhayaayi nilkkunnathinu) Can you mention few on which we can have a healthy discussion. I am asking you since you posted in your comments that it will take few generations for Jacobite church to .....
I look forward to your comments. I wait for you to mention few benifits. May God Bless You

Ravi George said...

Dear Jomon,

Thank you very much Sir

You are absolutley right when you said that our Christianity should not be limitd by a sense of nationality. Theoreticaly that is correct.

But when you look at the practcal side of implementing that you'll start facing many hurdles.

We all know a good fensing make us good neighbours. We have our syrain traditions. But if these traditions are used by some peope to limit our freedom of others to grow, then we have take certain practical steps to maintian the growth of the Church.

if you look at the status of the Church in Antioch you will realise that they have almost vanished. One of the main reason for this downfall is that they lost their stregth due to unnecesarily focussing their very limited strenth in a far away country trying to manage things beyond their capacity. THE RESULT: THEY ARE LOSING THEIR OWN PEOPLE.

Their struggle has not contributed anything to theirs as well as ours. Now we have reached a breaking point.


To progress and become fruitful, a national division is a very realistic approach. Hence I am a strong advocate of that division. But eventually all Christians will be united in Chrsit and then all this national identity will become irrelevant. But that will not happen in teh immedaite future. But here we see Jacobites too calling for division. Their divsion inside the same territory only weakens the Church. But a division based on national borders is realistic and helps both.

We know that there are hardly 2.5 per cent Christians in India. But CHRIST TOLD US THAT EVERYBODY WIL COME TO CHRIST. That will happen in the right time. So when we have a church head who is NOT TRUSTED IN THIS COUNTRY, how can you expect 97.5 per cent Indians to follow that leader?

Now look at the credentils of the peope who say that we have to look only at the SYRIAN identity. Have they allowed the Head of SYRIAN CHURCH as per this 'look beyond border' view? They say it is not practical in their country. THEN why don't they move this CHURCH HEAD QUARTERS TO A PLACE WHERE ALL SYRIAN CHRISTIANS in THE WORLD WILL BE TREATED EQUALLY?

Now the Antich Patriach, the Head of the Syrian Community, is RESERVED FOR AN ARAB. NOT ONLY THAT, outsiders do not have right to vote. THEN Sir, WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THIS UNIVERSAL SYRAIN CHURCH?

Reni said...

Ravi, Jomon

I am Christian who is very very PROUD about my SYRIAN IDENTITY.

I AM NOT RIGHT WHEN I CLAIM EQAULITY JUST LIKE ANY OTHER SYRIAN CHRISTIAN IN THE WORLD? why should be a lesser Syrian Christian based on my ntionality as an Indian?

Any priest of the Syrian Christian community should have theequal right to become the Patriarch. If the HEAD OF THE CHURCH IS RESERVED ON THE BASIS OF RACE, there is racism is in the church.

One Jacobite friend said that it is due to the restrictions imposed by Arab govts. My question is: Have the Arab govts imposed restrictions on right to vote too?

Secondly, The Church in Antioch has almost vanished, according to reports. Then what's the need for keeping the Church Headquaters in that place where there are no faithful? LET US THINK OF A HEAD OFFICE ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHERE ALL SYRIANS ARE TREATED EQUALLY.

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