Thursday, August 19, 2010

Holy Qurbana and Marthoma church by Fr. Abraham Konattu.

 Holy Qurbana and Marthoma church by Fr. Abraham Konattu. From: Orthodox - Marthoma Conversations. Some Papers and statements from the period 1968-70. Edited by Paul Varghese (Dr. Paulos Mar Gregorios) & M. Thommen, Kottayam, 1971.

11 comments:

sam said...

Holy Qurbana is the Living sacrifice.If we do not recognise as Living Sacrifice There is No significance in celeberating the bead and wine for the rememberance of Jesus Sacrifice at Calvary. It is Better to Have MOSC Holy Synod to make a comment on this issue rather than The Laity commenting here.
In 1. Corin10:16 St.Paul Says the blessed bread and wine becomes the body and blood of our lord Jesus Christ.
"May The Holy Spirit Abide here, Make this Bread The Life Giving Body,the trur Body of our God and Lord Jesus Christ and perfect This Chalice into the Blood of the new covenant,the redeeming blood,and the ture blood, of our God and saviour Jesus Christ"
Jesus was Complete Man And Complete God at the same time,The blessed Bread and Wine arethe body and blood of Jesus Christ. This(orthodoxfaith) was Exactly told By lateYoohanon Marthoma In court case with K.N. Daniel(Evangelical marthoma church)However Marthoma church removed this from ourthaksa and cannot now claim our Holy Qurbana is not the same with MarThoma church

George said...

An extremely useful peice of information. Rather than finding out what is the theological defect in Mar Thoma Holy Qurbana, I find this article as a very valuable document which must be added as an annexure to our Class 10 sunday School text so that our children will learn the truth. It is advisable to use this for the POCE course also. We can understand the HOLY MYSTERY in a very simple manner.Those parishes which are having activities like family units and similar fellowships must take note of this and discuss this. Many confused minds will get cleared.
###George Joseph###

xavier said...

I have one doubts in the post " holy qurbana and marthoma church"
what is the reason for conducting qurbana service for dead persons. Can you quote any bible word supporting this? Is Jesus said you have to do for dead persons? (Qurbana is a holy feast(kathru mesha) so believers has to eat bread & drink cup). Bible says: 1 Corinthians 11:23: For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. So who will eat for dead souls?

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Xaviour
I do not know which faith that you follow. By Your question you donot seem that you belong to orthodox faith.Kindly read St.John Gospel 5:24-25;6:47-51.
Again read St.John Gospel 11:25
If Jesus Christ is the Resurrection and Life In Holy Qurbana Liurgy the departed souls will participate.Jesus said" He Is The Bread of Of Life" He who comes to Jesus shall never hunger and who belives in Him shall never thirst."This Bread which comes down from heaven ,that one may eat of it and not die"
Those departed souls(as per the Jesus' words) are alive and they can actively participate in the liturgy Of Holy Qurbana where the presence of Jesus Christ is alive!
Moses And Elijah appeared at the mountain of Transfiguraion,when Christ was praying.Read Epistle of Hebrew12:22-24"But you have come to mount Zion and the City of livingGod,The heavenly Jerusalem,and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,and into the assembly of the first born who are enrolled in heaven,and to a judge whis God For all,and to the spirit of Just men made perfect,and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than Abel"The ever continued presence of the departed souls again mentioned in Hebrew 12:1.The souls are beyond time and space.Thus they are with us celeberating Holy Qurbana
answer to your question please refer 1 corinth15:29.

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Xaviour
Holy Qurbana does not mean "Table of Lord" alone!Many modern christian call it as last supper!It is not last supper/meal. Christ has clearly said the meaning of Qurbana(The Living Bread). Holy Qurbana is a sacrifice of atonement,passover sacrifice,and burnt offering! Moreover Holy Qurbana is a thanks giving service and bread of Life!(St.Mathew 26:26-27,St.luke22:17,St.Mark 14:22-24)

Lord's sacrifice was for the whole creation/mankind.
Those really follow the words of Jesus as per St.John 6:53-58 are sure they will understand the importance of Holy Qurbana.What is Lord's death and its proclamation ?The context of St.Paul's teaching(1 corin 11:26) cannot be construed as a basis for your question for dead souls. The Dead souls are dead.The Departed souls are alive!
Those who beleive in Jesus shall live for ever.Conductinh Holy Qurbana and participating in it by the living people are Uniting with departed soul's in Christ!

Philip said...

Xavier,
There are 39 books in old testament and 26 in New Testament.
Don't try to sell your argument by quoting a sentence from the entire Bible. It will be just like the Blind men who went to see the elephant.
Your question resmbles to the one Jews asked Jesus, with what authority are you............

Sam said...

dear Xavior
Read Mathew 27:51-53
during the death of Jesus on cross at calvary many things happened...Many bodies of saints who had fallen asleep were raised,graves were opened.Jesus sacrifice on calvary is in real sense of Holy Qurbana/Holy Mystery
H.Qurrbana is a sacrifice.This why St.Paul said that we proclaim the death of our lord until he comes(1 corin 11:25)
we must understand the real sacrifice of our God.

All aspects of Holy qurbana is based on Bible and teachings of Christ.Jesus Lived in earth as a complete man for more tham 33 years to fulfil his father's will.
a ready made answer cannot be given to your doubt/query as in the real sense the Spirit/soul never dies until the Judgment by Lord.
if the dead were raised during Christ's death it is also possible for the departed souls can participate In Holy Mystery/Holy Eucharist. The Holy communion is not mere Table of Lord for eating and drinking or banquet in heaven
as it is real participation in the sacrifice of our God in Calvary. All life events of Jesus on earth from birth to his ressurection are
being remembered and celeberated in holy Qurbana.

Please study the broader meaning/wider sense of Holy Eucharist/Holy communion etc before arising such doubts as you merely term it as Lord's Table . JesusChrist through his death and sacrifice at cross( Read 1 corinth 15:26)destroyed the last enemy"death"
The death is seperation of Physical body from soul. the souls/spirits never die util His Judgement.
Lazarus was raised from dead(John gospel 11)This was done before christ's crucification and death.
During Transfiguraion of Christ,Moses and Elijah appeared before Jesus and talked to him (mathew 17:3)
How can dead people talk? In Christ the beleivers never die or the souls/spirit never dies
There are no dead spirits/souls uless they are unbelievers!

Sam said...

dear Xavior
Read Mathew 27:51-53
during the death of Jesus on cross at calvary many things happened...Many bodies of saints who had fallen asleep were raised,graves were opened.Jesus sacrifice on calvary is in real sense of Holy Qurbana/Holy Mystery
H.Qurrbana is a sacrifice.This why St.Paul said that we proclaim the death of our lord until he comes(1 corin 11:25)
we must understand the real sacrifice of our God.

All aspects of Holy qurbana is based on Bible and teachings of Christ.Jesus Lived in earth as a complete man for more tham 33 years to fulfil his father's will.
a ready made answer cannot be given to your doubt/query as in the real sense the Spirit/soul never dies until the Judgment by Lord.
if the dead were raised during Christ's death it is also possible for the departed souls can participate In Holy Mystery/Holy Eucharist. The Holy communion is not mere Table of Lord for eating and drinking or banquet in heaven
as it is real participation in the sacrifice of our God in Calvary. All life events of Jesus on earth from birth to his ressurection are
being remembered and celeberated in holy Qurbana.

Please study the broader meaning/wider sense of Holy Eucharist/Holy communion etc before arising such doubts as you merely term it as Lord's Table . JesusChrist through his death and sacrifice at cross( Read 1 corinth 15:26)destroyed the last enemy"death"
The death is seperation of Physical body from soul. the souls/spirits never die util His Judgement.
Lazarus was raised from dead(John gospel 11)This was done before christ's crucification and death.
During Transfiguraion of Christ,Moses and Elijah appeared before Jesus and talked to him (mathew 17:3)
How can dead people talk? In Christ the beleivers never die or the souls/spirit never dies
There are no dead spirits/souls uless they are unbelievers!

rajanthomas said...

Dear All
The Holy Qurbana is an important Sacrement(sacrifice of Christ at calvary) of church.Sacrements are secret or mysterious acts of worship whereby the faithful are receiving blesssings/grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.Unseen divine power works through external objects and through this man gets grace and blessings!
The Incarnation of son of God is most important sacrement."and the word was made flesh,and dwelt among us,full of grace and truth"(john 1:14)The invisible Spirit, God assumed the visible object,flesh!God and man become one in Christ.
The bread of life: (Holy Eucharist/Holy Qurbana)(john6:25-35,6:36-58
Eat flesh and drink blood are against Jewish tradition /beliefs.
The bread that Jesus give is his flesh,which he will give for life of the world(John6:51)In Luke or synoptic gospel,we find This Is My Body which is given for you(Luke22:19,mathew26:26)
By recieving The Holy Eucharist,Jesus hints that beleiver achieve that thare are three main results (1) Eternal life(2)Unity of fellowship with God(3)Resurrection
Eternal Life: If Any man eats this bread he shall live for eve(John 6:51)
Unity:He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood dwells in me and I in him"(john 6:56)The relation between Father and son is being transferred to relationship between Son and The Christians
Resurrection:Who-so ever eats my flesh and drinks my blood,has eternal life ,and I will raise him up at the last day(6:54)
Those who receive Holy Eucharist can expect Eternal life and in the end Jesus will raise him up
holy Eucharist is the guarantee of our resurrection in christ!

George said...

Dear Xavier,
Let me congratulate you to have boldly come forward to get clarified on this topic and I am sure you have understood many things from the postings of Rinsam, Philp, Rajan Thomas, Sam and all. I would just add one more verse St Luke 20:38 which confirms that all are alive for Him. Again, please don't fall prey to the wrong teachings of certain self styled "Gospel Experts". They teach wrong things to satisfy their needs. One such "well known" preacher quoted St John 2:2 in part to prove that Jesus was invited to the wedding an Cana. He wanted to swallow the prsence of Mother and desciples.Also, you can read the Book of Tobit and the Book of Maccabi 1 and 2 from the Holy Bible to learn more apart from the verses quoted by others in this blog. May the Holy Spirit show you the true path. Wish you all the best.
###George Joseph###

Akkanadan Varghese said...

Dear Readers
Kindly read my comments on it but erroneusly posted in the comments against the topic taking care of the next generation.
Varghese Mathai
Akkanadan, Mavelikara
Member of SGOC Sharjah