Thursday, July 15, 2010

A Kalpana from Joseph Marthoma Metropolitan.

A Kalpana from Joseph Marthoma Metropolitan.

Reformation in the Malankara Orthodox Church by Dr. Paulos Mar Gregorios.
Malankara Sabhayum Mavelikkara Padiyolayum by Fr. Dr. K. M. George: 1  2

66 comments:

Avarachayan said...

അപ്പോള്‍ ഗുര്ഗന്‍ സഭയുടെ effect മാര്‍ത്തോമ്മാ സഭക്കും ഏറ്റോ? മാര്‍ത്തോമ്മാ സഭ മലങ്കര സഭയുടെ ഒരു ഭാഗമാണെന്നു തന്നെയാണല്ലോ പറഞ്ഞു വരുന്നത്. അതോ ഓര്‍ത്തഡോക്‍സ്‌ സഭ 1912 ഇല്‍ പൊട്ടി മുളച്ചതാണന്നോ?

basil said...

The Marthomites teach at their sunday schools that Palakunnathu Malpan took an idol of St. Mary from Maramon ( or Kozhenchery?) Church and threw it in the well !!! It could be the joke of 19th century as well. At ancient churches like Kallooppara church, we find the 'roopam' of St. Mary , which is strictly not to be venerated, but reminds us of the presence of St. Mary.
Why do they(Marthomites) take the 15-days fasting in August, anyway? Is that 'reformation' ? Fasting without knowing who is being commemorated on Aug 15?
It's a pity that now even the Marthomites have stooped to spread their own versions about historical events ( see the reference to establishment of Catholicosate in 1912 as the birth of MOSC... hilariously stupid). I know dozens of Marthomites who go to Parumala church to pray at the tomb of the Saint. When one such person met their priest on the bus, he had to lie that he was going somewhere else. Now that's some reformation!!!

Thampy said...

Abhivanniya Joseph MarThoma Thirumeniyodulla BhakthiYadharavukal PrakadippichuKonduThanne Parayatte. Adhehathinte Bhazhayil 1912-l Mathramanu Malankara Orthodox Suriyani Sabha Undayathu, Athinu Munpu Ullavaranu Ippozhathe Yakobayakarum, Adhehathinte Sabhayum, Ennanennu Thonnunnu. 1912-l AthiPurathanamaya Kizhakkinte Catholicate Malankarayilekku Matty Punasthapikkapedukayanu Undayathenna CharithraSathiyam Ariyillatha Suriyanikkar Ee Malankarayil Ippozhum Undo Ennoru Samsayammm.....?

rinsam2002 said...

orthodox suriyani sabhayil ninnum poyi anglican sabhaye vivaham cheythittu kazhina 175 ayappol oru velipadu undayi.!suriyani kristhiani chollikondirunna suriyani basha matti mathrubashayil aradahana ndathi vedapusthaka parambariyam mathram mathi ennu shadicha palakkunnathu tharavatile ippozhathe mathrachanum velipadu!!kaikala viabhavam!!

Joshy said...

Orthodoxukar ethra noorupravgsyam paranjalum charitram charitramavathirikkilla. the same said by Catholica of Malankara Reethu earleir MOSC brought 'valum parichayum" to fight with them. Now what Devalokum is going to take to finish off Joseph Marthoma Methrapolita..

Malankara Orthodox TV said...

ചാണ്ടിച്ചായന്‍: ഓര്‍ത്തഡോക്സ് സഭ 1912 - ല്‍ ഉണ്ടായതാണെന്ന് ജോസഫ് മാര്‍ത്തോമ മെത്രാപ്പോലീത്തായുടെ കല്പനയില്‍ പറയുന്നു.

ടിന്റുമോന്‍: ജോസഫ് മെത്രാപ്പോലീത്തായല്ലെ അതും അതിനപ്പുറവും പറയും. നേരത്തെ മാര്‍ത്തോമാ മെത്രാപ്പോലീത്താ ആയ സമയത്ത് പൌരസ്ത്യ സഭാ പാരമ്പര്യത്തിനു വിരുദ്ധമായി ക്രൂശിത രൂപമുള്ള കുരിശും ധരിച്ചായിരുന്നു അദ്ദേഹത്തിന്‍റെ നടപ്പ്. വിശ്വാസം പഠിച്ചു കഴിഞ്ഞപ്പോള്‍ അത് മാറ്റി. ചരിത്രം പഠിച്ചു കഴിയുമ്പോള്‍ ഇതും മാറ്റുമായിരിക്കും.
അദ്ദേഹത്തിന്‍റെ മുന്‍ഗാമിയായ ക്രിസോസ്റ്റം തിരുമേനി മലങ്കര മെത്രാപ്പോലീത്തായാണെന്ന് പറഞ്ഞു മേല്‍ക്കുപ്പായവും ധരിച്ചായിരുന്നു നടപ്പ്. സ്ഥാനമൊഴിഞ്ഞിട്ടും അങ്ങനെ തന്നെയാണ്. ഏതായാലും ജോസഫ് തിരുമേനി അത് കാണിച്ചില്ല

News said...

They don't remember or respect St Thomas. But they need the name Marthoma. A Sabha without Marthoma. Adine pattiyakkunna paripadi

News said...

They won't remember or respect St Thomas. But they need the name of Marthoma. A Sabha without Marthoma. Adine pattiyakkunna paripadi. You are the First Protestant in the Malankara Sabha. Why you take the name of Malanakara Sabha. Please change the name as Navikarana Sabha. Byproduct of Anglican's.

News said...

Don't wonder if Marthomites say Orthodox church was orginated from them. Their HH is Syrian Patriarch.

mohanmathew said...

NOne of these wanted heritage of St Thomas. All have left for seeking FOREIGNERS. Now they know that foreigners have lost their glory. So somehow want to get back the cultural and national identity.

We should read a book with title Chrisostam Thirumeni. It is a full book interviewing valiya Thirumeni of Marthoma Church. The book says what Marthoma church lost when they had gone after Anglicans. They threw away SURIYANI, heritage of ST Thomas and anything assciated with our cultural identity. They began singing English music deserting Suriyani. Now look they started using AD 52, SURYANI, St Thomas, MALABAR....

Take the case of any churh who split away. All got a foreign tail... After some years PENTACOSTALS who left everything to seek AMERICAN DOLLAR SPIRITUALITY will claim they are of St Thomas.

This is a typical expample how real belivers who were holdiong on to the traditions, fighting against all foreign invasions(still fighting) can again be robbed of the values they had.
I never expected Marthomas Church could stoop down to this level..
I married from marthoma church and has got may relatived there. I had called and talked to many of them that this is an OPPORTUNIST policy of the present leaders of your Church.

Let Marthoma Church declare thier faith if they are so much ashamed about the Aglicans who were the nly HOLY people for them..

mohanmathew said...

So may prodigal sons left HOME after FOREIGNERS (with white skin) thinking they have 'everything'. Now they have come back and claim that the house which we striggled to maintain is 'theirs'.

NO SHAME AT ALL!

mohanmathew said...

Anglicans cheyyunnathu pole KURE 'ACHI'KALE koode vazhicchu koode ivarkku?

I strongly fee that the present generation of achans and bishops laity are ashamed that their forefathers had licked the boots of ANGLICANS who have 'gay bishops, ACHIKAL, and are now planning to cosnecrate STHREE BISHOPS...

So they think somehow we shoudl get rid of this ANGLICAN IMAGE.

what happened to your alliace with CNI and CSI? I think they too are ashamd about ANGLICANS

mohanmathew said...

Foreignersne Chumannarvarkelam nattam vanu thudangi

Rome, Antioch, Canturbury , America...Ipppol GURGANnte germany (europe) .. ennu venda sakala foreigners neyum chumannavarkum Nattam thudangi.

Ini oodi keri ithu vare foreigners ne ethirtthavaraaya chavitti puratthakkiyittu avide kayari irikkam.

mohanmathew said...

We shouldn't take it lightly. I think we should remind Marthoma church head about its past, its follies and stupidity in chasing its Anglican partner. What are their contribution to Kerala Chrsitnaity except taht they were responsbile for innumerabale quarels and troubles. Also, western practices and later leading to arrival of Penatcostals

I'm reminded of a flirting girl who had gone after a foreigner, got pregnant and then losing faith in her partner and has returned to home.
Without shame now claiming 'I carry the heritage.'

Because of these people gone after Anglicans, we had to give affidavit that we are under Patriarch and therefore these 'anglican-bootlickers' are responsible for all the fights we had later with Antioch. Now they act innocent and godly.

The first thing we should do is not to fall into their ecumenical trap, a very dangerous one.

Manu Zachariah said...

Mr MohanMathew please explain what do u mean by "Because of these people gone after Anglicans, we had to give affidavit that we are under Patriarch "


Manu Zachariah
New Delhi

Binu Mathew said...

The Encyclical of Most Rev.Joseph MarThoma is for private circulation within the MarThoma Church. I request the editors to refrain from abusing it. Was the Kalpana sent to you?, I am sure not, It was sent to all the churches under his throne and is published in the church website and I am sure you copied it from there for using it to tarnish my Metropolitan. I strongly condemn this action. Please try to focus issues within your own church and I am sure you have plenty of issues for hot discussion at the moment . Leave alone MarThoma Church who is friends of everyone and enemy of none.

Dr.Binu M.K.Thomas, Belfast UK

Philip said...

Dr.Binu Mathew,
No body would have bothered with Your Bishop's comment if he had to restrict the references to your church. As usual you guys have played the innocent role. Let us not get into the history of the formation of your church that led us into the world of litigations. Now you pretend to be the innocent lamb.
Best of luck
Enjoy
Hope you are reading the same Bible many of us read.
St.Paul writes to Timothy
"In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.............

George said...

Dear Dr Binu Mathew,
I agree with you that Most Rev Dr Joseph Marthoma Metropolitan should not be abused in this forum.At the same time, he should have been more careful in using certain words in his kalpana. Also, once it is put in a web site, it is a public property. Or else, had it been that private, it should have been treated private by him and not published through a web site.

mohanmathew said...

Dear Manu
Thank you.
In the affidavit in The Royal Court was filed to fight the marthoma Church. We had to say that we are under teh Antioch to save the situation. In all teh later cases we had to go accordingly. Marthomites lost the case , but we had to suffer from the Patriarch of Antioch and i sstill suffering all becasue of these Western looking fellows who are now ashamed of their past Anglican link.

Mr Binu Mathew, we had fought with all the foreigners and we know they are all loosers. We have not changed our Faith till now. We know that your protestant church will change. You mentioned that it was just a private circualtion among your faithful. Did we come to Pulatheen and protest. We have every right to discuss thing in an Malankara Orthodox site. i hope you will understand
our feelings. You people have left the Church and now have come back to claim the heritage. I have studied in a Marhtoma School an dI know about your western paattu and teachings. I married from a Marthoma family and will not let my wife and children anywhere near taht PROTESTANT church. or me it is not a church at all.

yes, we are fighting cases..,all because of foreigners and their boot lickers in Malankara. Do you think it will go for ever? The Bible also says that they woudl drag us to court for our FAITH. Division created by ENGLISH people we was the reason for Royal Court Juedgemet which later led to troubl with Antioch. So don't play innocent.

What about about your relationship with Anglican Church now? You too can have gay and sthree bishops...

I have read an interview given by your Mar Chriostam Vliaya Thirumeni that Marthoma Church is an Oriental Orthodox Church.. So have you left Protestant faith? What's wrong with that now? Orthodox Chruches all over the have something in common, their unchanged faith. You think you can claim to be an Orthodox without accepting them?

mohanmathew said...

While we should refrain from showing disrespect to Most Rev Dr Joseph Marthoma Metropolitan or Senior Metropolitan Valiya Thirumeni, or the church leaders, we should oppose this statemet as ANTI-National stand adopted by all the foreign linked Churches who just want to tarnish the national image of our Coutry's heritage. They just want to establish an Indian Church was formed only in 1912..

We have been fighting for the FREEDOM of Indian church, and TRUE FAITH. We will not let them shed our national identity.

I am not surprisied that they are UNSURE of their faith becasue their GOD fathers, the Anglicans, themselves are more confused. I heard a branch wil soon join catholics...jumping from extreme to other. but they will not find the TRUE FAITH

mohanmathew said...

we should all condemn the statement of Marthoma Matropolitan that the day of establishment of the catholicate in India was the day of estblishment of our Church. This statement was issued with malicious and ungodly motive to tarnish teh image of the NATIOANAL CHURCH which fought (still fighting) all FOREIGNERS.

basil said...

Marthomites say : MOSC was formed in 1912...
Let me ask : Was India formed in 1947?
OK, if you people were stupid in history classes, I'll give some help there. India became independent and stared being ruled by HER OWN people in 1947.
Now look at what happened in 1912. The Malankara Church became independent from the yoke of Antioch which had been burdening her since the 1880s. And we started being ruled by OUR OWN High Priests.
Saying that MOSC was FORMED in 1912 is as stupid as saying that India was FORMED only in 1947.

And Dr Binu Mathew,
This is not the first time I have seen you play innocent and turn a blind eye towards the faults of your own church. Whenever I see your name in ICON forum, I have the feeling : Oh , the guy has come pleading again.
Instead of playing the saint, try explaining why you people are trying to bring back all the names and positions that you threw away a century ago(like AD 52, SURYANI, St Thomas, MALABAR....). Tired of licking the Anglican boot?

Avarachayan said...

കലക്കി ബേസില്‍

Binu Mathew said...

Whatever language you use or how muchever loud voice you use, the truth remains the same.The history is history.Dont just use your emotion to create history for your church, then it will become only 'yourstory'. Let us have an unbiased examination. What MarThoma Metropolitan has stated in his Encyclical is the actual hisotory. If you ask any Orthodox or MarThoma or Catholic belonging to the last generation, they know that there were only two major church division within the undivided Malankara Syrian church. That is MarThoma anf Jacobite. Later the Jacobite Church had two divisions within themselves as Methran Kashi and BavaKashi. This will be the common knowledge within the common man including Catholics , CSI and even Hidus and Muslims of Kerala. The term Jacobite was a misnomer or not is another issue. But for all practical purpose that was the name used for the Syrian church in Kerala.If you examine the old deeds of any ancient Orthodox Church in Kerala and Government records it will be evident. It was the common name used for the present Malankara Orthodox Church under the Catholicos of the East or Malankara Syrian Orthodox church under the Patriarch of Antioch and All the East. Now the later group has officially named themselves as Malankara Jacobite Syrian Church due to legal reasons and as they want to totally separate from yourselevs. Your church members are still unsure whether to use the name 'Indian Orthodox Church' or 'Malankara Orthodox Church' or 'Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church' or tomorrow any Tom ,Dick and Harry in this forum may suggest new names too. I pity on you. At present I am sorry to say that your church is the most indisiplined church in the whole of Kerala.Starting from top to bottom. You are keen for criticising Malankara Catholics, Jacobites,Pentacostals and now started against MarThoma Church too. If you want unbiased history go and ask from your own church history experts like Fr.M.O.John. He will give you unbiased history. Now dont attack me for supporting him. I have never seen him or know him personally. But have read his articles. Some asked whether India was fromed in 1947 only just because we got freedom in 1947. If you examine carefully. It is true that India was formed in 1947 only if you are using the term 'India' for the present Republic of India. Prior to that the India under British was called 'British India' and it consisted of Pakistan,Present India and Bangaladesh. There was never a country called India. There were numerous countires like, Hindutan -mainly north India,Mysore, Maratha, Chera, Pandia etc. Now if you take th term India in a wider usage , then the land of India was used to denote any country in the east beyond Persia upto China.

Regarding MarThoma church using the terms like Syrian, Malabar throne etc. MarThoma Church is a reformed Orthodox Church. It is not a Protestant church as many of you think, if that was the case, then Mathews Semmasan would have got ordination from Canterbury Arch Bishop. But instead he was sent to Mardin to see the Patriarch of Antioch. It was not a secret affair. There was arguement about the continuity of Episcopacy in the existing church in Malnkara and even there were mixture of Catholic culture and practises within the Malankara church. Malpan Abraham wanted to reform these and he needed a hierarchial support. In MarThoma church we have never deleted traditions, but we deleted wrong traditions ( AAcharangale nilaniruthi Aanaacharangale neekki).

Rajan Joseph said...

Dr. Binu Mathew, Well done...Fantastic.

Binu Mathew said...

For all who are boiling with anger after reading this, have some more chilli for your throat. When we lost everything in the case , when Palkkunnathu Thomas Mar Athanasius left Pazhaya Seminary leaving his Bishoporic Sleeba,Crown and Cross, someone from your side threw the chair that he used to sit through the window without knowing the importance. Actually that was the throne of Malankara Marthomas used from MarThoma 1st onwards for consecrating. That throne is with us till today . It is in Poolatheen now and those of you want to see are welcome. So MarThoma Metropolitans even today sits on the throne of MarThoma . How muchever gold and silver is used you can not make the same ancient woodden throne for your Bava of Devalokam .MarThoma Church still uses the Mooron from Antioch and hence we still accept the fact that the ordination comes from there. Nobody can deny the fact that the vestments, the traditions and the liturgy used in the churches in Kerala are a gift from Antioch and there were few additions and deletions in your church and in my church. We still are not ashamed to say that we are using the Mooron from Antioch and so the case with Thozhiyoor Syrian church too. Our church clergy or lay members still do not dare to criticise Patriarch of Antioch even though according to him we are excommunicated. Any church who left your yoke of legal matters has grown to a considerable blessing for others. Today sit back and realax and examine your church's growth compared to MarThoma, Reethu, Present Jacobite church and now you have more recent addition such as Mar Grugan Severios's Antiochean church too!!!.

God save your church!!
-----------------------------------
I too have many family members and friends in Orthodox Church. I was a regular visitor of Coimbatore Thadagom Ahramom, Philipose Mar Eusebios thirumeni of blessed memory was the one who led the dedication service of my house in UK . Late Alexander achen of Kinattukara veetil Mavelikkara, who was a Professor of Pazhaya seminary is from my family too.

With Love,
Dr.Binu M.K.Thomas

Binu Mathew said...

Today most of you are jealous of the growth of MarThoma Church, Malankara Reethu Catholic church and Present Jacobite church . Instead of saying we are the real church, we are the real church again and again for thousand times ,examine yourselves where you failed. First of all for any organisation or church to function smoothly it should have discipline. You need to have that in your church. I see that the new Bishops are doing their best effort to bring discipline within your church, especially in outside India parishes.Do you have one leader in your church whom the common man in the community , (I mean Hindu/Muslim brothers) will identify from your church. Any child in Kerala will know who Chrysostum thirumeni is, who Benedict Mar Gregorios was and who Joseph Mar Powathil is . But everybody in Kerala knows that your church clergy and members were beaten up in front of secretariate Tvm and thanks to Asianet for that for showing that to the whole world.

We can keep on arguing and shout and scream at each other. Whether you cry, shout or throw your toy from your pram, the truth will remain the same.

All the best for Avarachayan, Basil and Mohan Mathew.

With love
Dr.Binu MK Thomas
A Proud MarThomite.

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Binu Mathew
What Is Reformation?Marthoma CHurch reformation? you are not Orthodox Church.Why MOSC/IOC is not fit for Malankara Orthodox Church.Why Do you Call Marthoma Church Of India/Malabar? I personally attended/witnessed your current Bishop primate's( Mathoma church of India ) when he was a Sufrogen Bishop,his overseas Service/press conference especially in African Inland Church(protestant Church like pentacost)) Anglican church in Africa.When your primate attend protestant church he is a protestant and when he go to anglican church he is behaving like Anglican Bishop.where does this two nature come from?
Also Binu,There were no title deeds available now for the old centuries that is before Europeans came in Kerala .All Title deeds /documents prior to british rule in India/malabar have you ever seen or heard about it?
The Christian in people in India/Malabar were known as syrian christians/jacobites as from 16th centuary after the advent of Europeans not before that.
Exactly in AD1653 after the Coonan Cross oath due to Malabar Christian allegiance to Antiochean Church, We Malankara Church was known as Jacobites.Before Coonan Cross We Malankara Church used Kaldaya syriac due to persian church relations.If anybody look at that time any documents,history of Malabar, we were called Nazranis and not syrians/jacobites.
Marthoma Church is not reformed orthodox Church it is purely an anglican church as all your teachings,Prayer,liturgy/ worship everything is belonging to Anglican Church of England!The Anglican Church people Who came to Malabar wanted to teach our clergy English as well as theology in diguise for us to change to from our tradition to Anglican christianity,which was the Truth!

Acharangal/Anacharangal: Still Marthomites are like other kerala christians who follow "rahukalam"and "Jathakom"

George said...

It is natural that many of our members / believers are really upset at this kalpana, and many are reacting very strongly, even in languages not so Christian if we follow what Jesu Christ taught us. Based on this kalpana, there is big lesson for us to learn. The Church history we believe and teach our youngsters are not acepted by our sister churches. We have to inrospect why? If we are not giving the needed importance in spreading our true history, people will keep on misunderstanding our past and our heritage. We must view this seriously and take proper initiatives immediately.

Varghese said...

Avarachen,
Any provision to get one Chevalier for Dr.Binu Mathew. May be after Justice K.T.Thomas, he should get one. Remember he became justice only after Patriarch blessed him.

Truly amazing eyewitness account of throwing the chair on their Bishop. May be good wood otherwise the leg would have broken.
Yes Binu Mathew you are not part of any reformist group. You are Suriyani Christiani. Yes brother you have that fighting spirit. See the new association Marthoma, Rite and Jacobite.
"Ennampeechikku Marapaptti kootu".
Long live the Syrian Marthomite Church.
Meanwhile, Dr. I have a question. I don't know what field you practice. If somebody is jealous about something, what happens? The person who is jealous have a problem or the person who is jealous about is in a problem. In this case truly the person who is jealous about is having a problem. What do you recommend? Need to consult a Psychiatrist?

Varghese said...

Really I am rather annoyed not jealous about the Marthomites, Rite and Jacobites because they all have one in common, they all cheated the mother church for their personal interests.
How did Mar Palakunnathu Athanasios get his ordination?
How did Bethany Ivanios became Arch Bishop Ivanios of Rite?
How and where did Thomas Pradhaman get his red gown from?
Even the mega thriller makers in the movie industry will not be able to make a screen play about the life and works of the above personalities even today.

Now here comes the most disciplined church member boasting of that rich heritage.
He gives the logic that India was not born in 1947 even though it got independence only in that year. But sells the argument the Orthodox Church was born in 1912 as if without a Catholicate Orthodox cannot be formed. Poor man considers Orthodox as a faction, not as a faith.
Is this not a common problem with these 3 musketeers about whom the Orthodox is jealous about!

Isaac said...

I personally know Dr. Binu M. K. Thomas, Belfast UK (alias Binu Mathew) since a long time. He is a Consultant Psychiatrist in the UK and although a gentle person, probably due to his nature of work he often gets irritated fast, if anyone disagrees with him and gets into a rage as though he chewed and swallowed chilly down his throat. At this time he refuses simple logic and lashes out vehemently at those who meet him.

You people out there have irritated him and that’s why he says Marthoma Church is reformed 'Orthodox' Church and Aacharangale nilaniruthi Aanaacharangale neekki and so on. When he’s cool he’ll return to his senses.
He knows the Anglican Church has been in the media for illicit affairs. The leadership of Marthoma Church too wants to severe Anglican relations and bring in old relations with Antioch. Dr. Binu is very clever and he bends the rod to make both ends meet. As he is a Dr, he knows where to hit and that’s why suddenly out of the blue, he and his church have abruptly developed love and praise for Antioch, our Patriarch and our Jacobite Church which was not seen all these years. The Marthomites know to make their move well and play their game through. In few years take it granted that Marthoma Church will ditch Anglican and the Protestants and they would be an arch diocese of Antioch under our Patriarch. They would again not hesitate to ditch our Church when time favours. We have to be careful with these cunning fellows who started the first ditching work in the United Church in 1843.
Love,
Isaac Joseph. K.
UK.

Rajan Joseph said...

Dear Mr. Varghese,
HB Baselius Thomas I got ordination from canonical Patriarch of Antioch, not from a dethroned Patriarch.

Jeevan said...

You have laid down many allegations against the Orthodox Church.

You say, “we are jealous” about your growth. What growth are you talking about Dr. ? Your church members help Thanku Brother to grow. Majority of Marthomites are fed with Pentecostel ideologies. Now that, its not fashion to utter “Anglican”, you want to say “Orthodox”. Does anyone in Marthoma knows, what it is to intercede to the saints and pray for the departed. A church which is very close to Pentecost, says “reformed orthodox”. Joke of the Millennium.

Again, you say, we don’t have any leaders, like your Chrysostem and Powatthil of Catholics. True. Your chrysostem, that PUBLICITY liking “komali”, would even stoop for Amrithanandamayi. He went there and also did praise her. Surely even kids in kerala knows, such an idiot. Now Powathil, his bulls against the communists have earned him a rightful place in media sphere. Tell me, is both any better Christian than our Holy Bawa. He is the only saintly person amaong all the Christian thugs around. Being in media, dosent qualify a person to be a leader .

One question arises, what is the obligation of a Christian leader, go around and make publicity stunts for media or remain an ascetic like our Holy Bawa.

Jeevan said...

Mr Rajan Varghese

Anyone in Malankara would know, that, if a bishop pays, more to the Turkish Authorities, he can become the Patriarch.

The mooron selling Reeth catholic bishop abdullah became patriarch by offering a fortune to the muslims... By any cost, Abded Mashiha is far better than him

mohanmathew said...

There are only two divisions in Malankara if you study it properly: Those who have gone after foreigners, thinking they have ultimate TRUTH (and are now trying to come back, losing the foreign partner and dignity also), and those who remained always loyal to the true Nasrani original faith and nationalistic..

Dr Binu, What is your faith now? Is it still PROTESTANT?..We are glad that you are changing and now claim ORTHODOX (accoding to VALIYA THIRUMNI)

You said, we are jealous... about what? We are proud that we have always followed the faith our fore fathers and remained steadfast... It is you people who have gone after foreigners and now confused .. (Otherwise Ask your VALIAYA THIRUMNI.. i have a Marthomite neighbour who takes regular lessons from me on ORTHODOXY) Will your children remain in your Protestant faith? I 'm sure they won't. But we are sure we and our chidren reamin in ORTHODOXY... We will gladly welcome your children into ORTHODOXY...If you are losing you are protestant faith, what is teh so called Marthoma church? A church with confused faith and identity... You are proud abou vain things... I'm sorry for you

mohanmathew said...

How funny to hear that Marthoma Church is 'reformed' Orthodox Church!.. that is why they got 'reformed' SURIAYNI to English...now regreting.. (read book by Chrisostam Valiaya Thirumeni)

What is ORTHODOXY then? If Marthoma Church is Orthodox, then all Protestants can call themsleves 'ORTHODOX'... Then all Gay Bishops, STHREE BISHOPS, and ACHIS ...all will ecome 'ORTHODOX'...
Then Pentacostals .. are also 'better reformed' ORTHODOX...
In fact Jesus had prewarned about these type of people entering HIS TRUE CHURCH...

Hold on to True faith, brethren...

I decide that I will not have any kind of 'ecumenism' with these kind of 'reformed Orthodox..

mohanmathew said...

Dr Biunu

99 per cent Marthoma youth do not know Church history. What you people know.. is just like any pentacostal brethren..something from New testament.. Anybody knows they are taught and brought up in the Protestant way. If you think that is Orthodoxy.. dear Dr Binu, you know nothing of Orthodoxy.. It is a way of life.. a life of suffering in Christ.. it is difficult for Western style people to grasp it.. It is not a worldy way...You people think 'orthodoxy' is the trend now.. so take it.. just like you followed Anglicans...Don't take HIS name in vain..

If you think you are of Orthodox faith, what is the difference in faith between yours' and Anglicans'? I belive, Anglicans won't say they are Orthodox.

But the catch is that you said you are 'reformed' Orthodox. So Orthodox faith existed in Malankara... There existed a Church, an independent one for 1600 years..with no European or Antioch connection...founded by ST THOMAS and it was of Orthodox faith(This I read from an old Church history book written by Marthomite priest). If you doubt tell me I wil get the book's name and author tommorrow...Thank you

mohanmathew said...

Right, what is the difference between Pentacost and marthoma Churhc, very littl. So accordingto DR Binu's theory they too are 'reformed orthodox'. There is only one difference, Pentacostals do not baptise babies... Except that everything is the same.. heard their prayers? karthaev athu tharane.. karthave ithu tharane.. the style is selfish prayers.. is also same.. .. Then DrBinu says it is ORTHODOXY.I hope he'll read soemthing on ORTHODOXY.
But it is true that Marthoma Church is trying to become Orthodox.. they are the way.. They are trying to change.. welcome to ORTHODOXY

mohanmathew said...

Long back, Marthoma Church has had dialogues with Orthodox Church and disagreed on many points. Later they decided to form a unity with CSI, CNI due to commmon faith. if Marthoma Church is 'reformed Orthodox church', then what about CSI and CNI? i had always thought they have Anglcian protestant faith. As per Dr Binu, they too must have 'reformed Orthodox faith.

mohanmathew said...

Pastor Varghese: Tintu Mon, when we shoud we start claiming St. Thomas' heritage?

Tintu Mon: Now since the Rupee has got its symbol and also India set to become a rich country, and also West is losing its glitter, you can start claiming St Thomas legacy before it is too late.

mohanmathew said...

Well said jeevan, I 'm in the media. I know the tricks played by the so-called well-known. I do not want to name though due to prefessional reasons, but people can easliy judge who is who. The true servants will run away from all these... Protestant people like dr binu can only judge outwards things due to their basic teachings. .. we know how Marthoma church christians pray after saying 'THALAKALE VANAKKAM'.. It will take at least 10 generations for these people to know the meaning of 'ORTHODOXY'.

rinsam2002 said...

When suffragan Bishop Joseph Mar Iraenous of Marthoma church of India,Visited Kenya he attended year end sunday service(end sunday of december) at African Inland Church(pentacostal) at Kabarak Home of former President,Daniel arap Moi.Joseph Marthoma, bishop gave a sermon there and and he was asked why he has a headdress(Masanapsa)like that he is wearing,he told them,that he got,it from Church Of Egypt(tradition of monks,ancient church of Egypt) as Marthoma Bishop he has to wear it which signifies he is devoted to Jesus Christ and his 12disciples and he is unmarried,and he does not owe anything to this world. However the question here is that how did Marthoma Church of India get relatioship with Coptic Church(ancient church of Egypt)?
These are oppertunists and the recent Kalpana of Marthoma Church Primate clearly an evidence to that behavior of them.They can Make Any irrelavant statements without sound basis of facts.
Another issue with C.S.I church of Indaia,A malayalee bishop of C.S.I. Church who was in Mumbai for a long period who is currently in U.S. A. now.He is planning to leave his Anglican church due to the current problems of Anglican Church in Europe as well as in America.His close allies are saying he may join Catholic chuch very soon!
The marthomites forget that The Jacobite faction as well as orthodox faction in Malankara,are the same faith,sacrements,lturgy and worship! the Only difference is the Spiritual leadership of church at present!let them not confuse the Malankara orthodox church people!

rinsam2002 said...

Dear Rajan Joseph
What is the difference between Dethroned and Canonical?A canonical Partriach is One Elected to lead the churcg by The Episcopal Synod and who has not done agaist the Faith Of The Church.The Dethroned partriarch who was it? if you talk aboutH.H. Abded Messiah partriarch,he was not canonically ex-communicated/dethroned by Episcopal Synod in Antioch. How did he get dethrone? The Turkey Ruler has no mandate to Dethrone A partriarch who has not done anthing against The church or Faithful. when Turkey Ruler Got more money from another Bishop He(sultan) declared that The One who gave more moey become canonical partriarch. a Muslim ruler cannot appoint a Bishop as Patrtriach of a christian Church.
In Antiochean history ,The Money was important factor to get power from Sultan(ruler)of Turkey. please access .www.seyfo center.com and read what Augin Kurt, wrote about assyrian genocide and L.L.H.H.Partriarch EliasIII.

mohanmathew said...

Smile Please... Say 'C H E E S E'

Clik


Thank you, Marthomites, Jacobites, Malankara Romans, Latins, Syro Romans, American PENTAS


'BEHIND THE FACADE OF FOREIGN UNITY'

Instruction: Please copies to: Canturbury, Antioch, ROME (3 copies), Philadelphia (Bible belt)

Rajan Joseph said...

Dear rinsam, Then why did wattassery Thirumeni get episcopal ordination from HH Abdulla even when HH Abdal messih was there in Kurkumo Dayaro?

rinsam2002 said...

RajanJoseph
First answer to my quiery regarding the ex-communication of H.H.Abded Partriarch then I will answer to your quiery!

Varghese said...

Rajan Jpseph
Any idea where these places called Antioch, Syria, Kurkumo Dayara, Jerusalem etc. Learn some history and geography.
You better find out why did Mar Coorilose who got ordained along with St.Dionysius go to HH Abdullah for ordination Also find out what was the decision of the Association and Managing committee who elected them to become bishops. The way you try to explain is one feels that HH Abdul Messaih was locked up and prevented from giving the ordination. Find out how much Abdullah paid to get the Farman from the Turks to get it and the drama he enacted to conduct the ceremony.
If you people can legalise the ordination of Thomas Pradhaman, tomorrow you guys will canonize Gurgon and Amayanoor C.G. Heard about that saying, “nannum kettavante vendathedathu oru allu kilirthal, athum avannu oru thanalla”. You guys conduct and perform things illegally and them try to legalise and canonize it. Do you know the owner and number plate of the Pandy lorry in which Thomas Pradhaman came after his ordination? So don’t try to get more details on the heavenly ordination of Thomas Pradhaman at the hands of the legal Patriarch of A…….chya…

Jeevan said...

Dear Rajan Joseph,

Unfortunate that, still a grave mis-understanding about the poise of St.Vattasheril Mar Dionysius looms among the JOC faithful.

His one quality and the basic problem behind all the character assassinations against him is that, HE NEVER TRIED TO PLEASE EVERYONE. He never “buttered” anyone, and always spoke his mind. He is one “Gentleman” which we “male breed” should make our role model. He was NEVER afraid of speaking the truth and he cared very little about the diplomatic way of handling people (ie. trying to please everyone).

Most of the present leaders and human being we know about are good at stepping on two boats. We always think about compromising with everyone, so that we could have a peaceful, mutually agreeable solution. Sadly (in a political perspective) and gladly (in a Christian perspective) our saint was not a person who thought in such politician kind of way. For him, what is true and correct in Christian point of view, shouldn’t be compromised and it should always be followed. This was something the laymen, like CJ Kurien couldn’t understand. What they expected is more politicians like soft skills and compromise, that is something you can expect from a politician and not from a saint.

Back to your question. Why did the Saint, get ordained from Abdullah.

He didn’t on his own go to Antioch and get ordained. He was send their by the church. He was obeying the orders of his elders and the church.

As you may think, he was not a person, who kept ulterior hatred towards the Syrians. No, he had travelled to Syria, even at an elderly and tiring age, so that; he may bring peace in Malankara.

One advice to all JOC faithful, please do not indulge in character assassination, after reading VS. After all, there is a valid reason, to proclaim, Mar Dionsyius a Saint. Have you tried to ponder what those reasons are?

Varghese said...

You will never find a person more loyal to the Syrian Patriarch than St.Dionysius. The Saint has shown the Patriarchs how to respect that position. All these VS crocodile cries on Patriarch are with ulterior motive. In his old age he could have passed away while undertaking his final trip for peace when we was kicked on the face by HH Aprem. And the faithful came to know about it after he passed away through one of his confidants which was a witness to the events.
A human being in the same lines of our father of nation, Mahatma Ghandi.

mohanmathew said...

Thanks Isaac Joseph. K

I now clearly understand why marthoma church leaders want to keep away from us.

I think history is repeating itself and Marthoam Church will again be losers. I think they have not learned anything from the experience of chasing foreigners. World over Chuches are trying to be nationalistic. I can only sympathise with the short sighted views of its leaders.

1. The connection between teh families of Orthodox and Marthoma cannot be easily severed due to mariage relationships

2. marthoma people who have been broughtup in protestant faith cannot easily digest Antioch's faith and practices.

3. Anioch is slowly disintergrating and will be wiped out in a few decades. (Read National Geographic Coverstory about Arab Christians)
Marthoam Church will again be in teh same situation

4. If Marthoma Church starts following Antioch, then the naturally many of its followers will be more interested in Orthodox Church. So eventually it will help us only. I think marthoma Church is facing an
identity crisis. may God Give them light to see the Truth

George said...

The extract from our great Gregorious Thirumeni's book provides an excellent account of the background when a new Church was formed in Malankara leaving Orthodoxy and accepting reformation.I congratulate Mr Joice for this timely publication which would clear many confuced minds( if they wish to be cleared ). The reproduced article from George Achen too helps us in these lines. Well done, Mr Joice.

tubby said...

Dear Rajan Varghese,
Did you ever visited Kurkuma Dayara? Is there any resting place for HH Abdalla? You can see the remains of HIs Holiness Abded Massiah. God`s ways are different.

basil said...

Is there any need to continue this through-comments debate? Many of us Orthodox faithful have already shared our views about a Kalpana which is the product of lack of study. We really need not waste our time just to rectify Binu Mathew's blindness. Don't give unnecessary importance to names. He says: it was Jacobite before, then Orthodox , now Malankara, now Indian, blah blah blah.
We are rally lucky that he hasn't said that the church under the Patriarch of Antioch was formed only recently. (They changed their name to 'Syriac Orthodox Church' only this decade. Poor Binu Mathew may not have 'examined the old deeds of any ancient Church' in Syria or any 'Government records'!!! Or else, finding a different name in those records, he may have declared that SOC was formed in 21st century).

And regarding the wooden Throne of Marthoma Metropolitan, it only exemplifies the zeal to steal seen among some newly formed churches. Or has the situation become so pathetic that a church holding one or two old artifacts is the original one? Think again. The Reeth church also has such old things ( like ancient books in Syriac language, which were lost from Vattasseril Thirumeni's possession). So, having one or two old pieces of artifacts, which they possess only because of the cunning to take away what was thrown out of the window, doesn't give any credibility to this new desperate love towards kicked-out-tradition.

ചില കല്ലൂപ്പാറ വിശേഷങ്ങള്‍ said...

I am reminded of the Indian state called Tamil Nadu. They were fighting with Karnatak for Cauvery water. Now they fight with Kerala and Andhra pradesh. In fact that state sight with all the neighbouring states. Battle with Jacobites is not over yet. We see news about police protected Holy mass, police protected funeral etc in your churches. Is that the sign of a spiritual community????? Dont act like a stone age community. Have sense and grow up. Dont get cremated with blind belief in history. Have faith in Jesus Christ.

sam said...

Many Thanks to MTV team for the publication of H.G. Paulose Mar Greogorios' writings about Anglican church and malankara orthodox church! It is an eye opener to the present generation
who does not understand difference between orthodoxy and anglicanism in Malankara!

Suraj Iype said...

Dear Dr Binu,

Please calm down, as far as I can see nobody personally insulted you.

Yes the Marthoma church is very disciplined church, we wish it the very best. Yes our church is a mess , but according to you people has it not been so since the days of that Wesley of Malankara, Abraham Kathanar of Maramon.

We have been a mess for the last 200 years since Koonen Kurisu and will be so for another 400 more. We pray and hope that God will preserve the Orthodox Church inspite of our weaknesses. Has not the Orthodox Church been around for 2000 years; so thanks for your concern but we will last.

When you say that you have the chair and you are reformed Orthodox and so on, you fool nobody . There is no such thing as reformed Orthodox.

Are you in communion with any Orthodox? The differences between the Patriarch and the MOC after all the bitterness are differences between people of one faith. One day it will be resolved.

However with regards to the Marthoma church , because the faith is distorted, chances of unity are very less.

naithelloor said...

Dear All

From AD 52 onwards, all these Episcopal Churches have the right on their heritage from ancient Mar Thoma Christians ....No body, No Spritual Leaders can deny this fact..

Regarding Kalpana, I think, this particular sentence "construction" MAY BE wrong OR sounds different.

The same way Jacobites and Marthomites parted, in a "Later stage.. Jacobites again parted with our Orthodox brothers.

Please note that if I am staying little far or away, with a different style and builded a modern or traditional home, or if myself and my kids and spouse, started singing Suriyani pattu or English tunes, it does not mean that We should not claim our father's DNA, home or its culture or heritage.

So my beloved Christian brothers please stop on tarnishing each other.

Truth is truth and it is nothing but truth.!!!!

If we start taking all the old linen for washing now, all the segments may have so many things to write.

About the "VIVADA Sentence" only Mar Thoma Metropolitan could give us an explanation !! WHO EVER NEEDS A BETTER CLARIFICATION ..Please take some time, either meet him personaly or sent him a mail!

I strongly feel that we should not go further and dig here. If you dig more ...the more you dig... only nasty events of dirty tricks of all segments only will come out !!!!

Lastly I believe that we all have the right to belive and claim The Hierarchy of Ancient Mar Thoma Christians.

Thomas Naithelloor /Kallooppara

neelan said...

My dear friends in Christ,

It is wonderful to see the blog of your church and happy to see your close allegiance to your church. Of course there are some controversies regarding the Kalpana of our Metropolitan. Let us have an open discussion about this topic and can have dialogue with each other. See how Gregorios thirumeni commented on Naveekaranam's 150th anniversary. It marks the sign of mature reaction. See, this is an open forum for discussion. Both Marthomites and Orthodox members view the comments. It should not hurt the feeling of anybody. We are one in Christ. Even in the midst of all diversities in belief and history, let us join together to proclaim the good news to all. Let our world experience the joy of salvation. From the article of thirumeni, It is clear that we both have benefited from the missionaries. That does not mean that we have surrendered ourselves to them. Marthoma church have close connections with the churches in all over the world. We respect other faiths and beliefs, our sister churches. It is the identity of our church. That does not mean that we are 100% perfect. There is much lacking. We, as the church is growing into the fullness of Christ. Let us introspect ourselves and see the limitations in us. If anything stands against that growth, let us pray to the HOLY SPIRIT to renew the Church.
LET THE HOLY SPIRIT COME AND RENEW THE WHOLE CREATION

YOURS IN CHRIST
NEELAN

thomas joseph said...

many of the orthodox shabha makal has mentioned we marthomites as "videshikal" but plz remember the infight in your church and the kind of relations that orthodox church is trying to make with russian orthodox and other orthodox!are they not "videshikal" and i point i want to make it clear as a member of the malankara mar thoma suriyani sabha is that we practice all the lents and it is not that we don't remember our fore fathers,st mary and the apostles..in our tubadeen and our prayers we mention that...but we never ask them to interceede for us....and one more thing is that malankara mar thoma church does not have any "videsa" relations we are just independent suriyani sabha..and we are taught by our metrapolitians,sufragens and episcopa's to consider the orthodox sabha makal as our brothers in christ and also members of one family but you never take it into account

thomas joseph said...

pls keep in mind that THE MALANKARA MAR THOMA SURIYANI SABHA is not a protestent church ...it is a reformed orthodox church...reformed from all that crept into the malankara church during it's relation with the catholic church..like prayers to the saints and forcefull celibacy...all those who criticise reformation has to answer this...why do orthodox achens use malayalam in your taksa? all the meaningless practices was to be uprooted..

Chandichayan, Puthuppally said...

My Dear Thomas Joseph,

Marthoma Sabha Protestant Sabhayum Alla Orthodox Sabhayum Alla.

Reformed Orthodox Ennokke Paranjal Palakkunnathu Joseph Marthoma Chilappol Achayane Sabhayil Ninnum Purathakkum.

Njangalude Adutha Nattukaranayana Barnabas Thirumeniyodu Venamenkil Paranjo. Kuzhappamilla. Adheham Suriyaniyodum Orthodoxy yodum Thalparyamulla Bishop Aanu.

Ningalude Budhijeevi Sunny Achanodu Parayaruthu. K. G. Pothanachanodu Parayam.

Idea Pidi Kitty Kanumallo. Ithanusarichu jeevichal Themmadikkuzhyil Ninnum Mochanam Kittum.

thomas joseph said...

dear chandichayan,barnabas terumeni matramalla ella terumenimarkum suriyaniyum yathartha orthodox visvasavum thanna...all the marthomites believe in "stuthi chovakapetta" visvasam...the belief system that was prevailing in malankara before the roman visvasam came here...by reformation we didn't move to something new but went back to the old and orginal malankara visvasam..

Jeevan said...

@ thomas joseph

****the belief system that was prevailing in malankara before the roman visvasam came here*****

The belief system that was prevailing in Malankara before Portuguese arrival was Nestorianism.

Do you know that Nestor and his followers were branded heretics by the Synod of Ephesus.

It was not “Sthuthi Chovakkapetta Vishwasham” , it was heretical.

“Sthuthi Chovakkapetta Vishwasham”,is the Syrian Orthodox Belief which we started following from the late 17th century.

By saying, abaraham malpan went back to the old Nestorian era, you are quoting an enormous blunder. And opening admitting that Abraham Malpan went back to heresy.

beno said...

By reading the arguments and counter arguments it is evidently clear that the distance within the mind between orthodox and marthoma people is increasing day by day. It is highly pathetic, ridiculous and should not be encouraged at any curcumstances.Every marthoma family consists of atleast one orthodox/jacobite member and vice versa. Scrach a Martomite, you can see orthodox blood and scrach a orthodox, you can see a marthoma blood. then what benifict we will get by fighting each other. we have to remember the fact that other denomination will laugh and enjoy by reading our comments. Pls remember that each and every churches have its own legacy. if we are insisting marthoma church and their beleif are wrong or baseless, we should think it is hurting directly or indirectly millions of people, among them sometimes our parents will also there. So pls for God sake, pls stop these type of rubbish arguments between brothers.

Linux lover said...

Marthoma Church oru divasam potti mulachatalla.
We are here from AD 2.
When reformation happened ,the "orthodox" people cannot recognize the true meaning of it.
So what should us do ...?Remain in the same"orthodox" church?
Atukond marthomakkark oru paramparya sabayayi(called malankara church formerly) nilakollendi vannu.

Now what about all these critisicsms?...
All of them are from lack of understanding.....

The main argument I found here is "they have no hail mary"
Who said this???
The truth is that we are not giving unwanted importance to hail mary.


First you try to understand Marthoma church.
Then come to criticise.........