Jacobite group wants to have Mor Militus and Athanasios exeplled from MOSC. That's why thaey keep this issue alive. And, a few in the MOSC (not sure if it is catholicose designate/West Kandanad severios/manorama), and having some issues with these bishops are helping Jacobites. These persons wounded feelings of H. G Abraham Mar severios without any mercy, forcing him to return to Jacobite group. Whatever happens now in the church is giving a wrong message to those who want to join MOSC. Mor Miitius and Athanasios did everthing ith good intention, but they are facing truobles from all corner. Bad fate, struggling to survive.
In A Thirld world country We Have a congregation. Somtimes back the needs of that cngregationwere presented to our church hierarchy through MANKARA SABHA Magazine,brought to their attention by one of our priest who served there forsometime. The congregation made its stand and reported to our church heirearchy many times that due to changing immigration gproblems and instalbility of employment and Financial problems that country, they would like to get somebody from the congregation to be ordained as priest to serve their needs. The church authority or Our Bishops did not listen to them.The bishops put some negative remarks.Now this congregation is getting service from a catholic Malayalee priest who offer them Holy Mass in catholic rite and other services every 2nd saturday of month freely. From this experience it is clear that the rules and bylaws of our church are for the benefits protection of self interests and existence of certian Bishops who are not caring for their flocks. "Ponal Po kittum podaa"This is the attitude of our church heirearchy for those who leave orthodox faith and join other churches. MOSC/IOC and The Jacobite are there for Moeny,power and position.as well as for Litigation! Good comments Shaju!
I appreciate that Mr Shaju did a good research on some of the people who lost in the election process in Orthodox Church and later went on to be ordained as Bishop in the Jacobite Church without any hassle. I think he could do further studies and bring out a research paper or even a book.
But when we look at the issue from the angle of an old monk, we would sympathise with some of theose people. Our system of taking care of old people is so bad that even people with children and grand children too feel insecure. Even some of our metropolitans had suffered in old age. So an old monk thinks that if he could become a bishop he could die in peace. Family and commoners expect that an unmarried priest is all set to become a bishop. Restrictions and strict procedures have dashed the hope of many a Ramban.
We cannot entertain anyone who lost a chance to become a bishop in other churches (say Jacobites or Romo-reeth-Syrians or Gurgan's) with the promise of making him a Bishop of Orthodox church. Let us feel proud that we maintain certain standards for teh selection of bishops. The situation is different in other churches of Malankara.
Had Pathros Ramban been elected a Bishop of Orthodox Church, some of his own family members in the Society canmp would have joined the Orthodox Church - so strong is the motivation of turning into a Bishop.
We can expect more people like Pathrose Ramban who deserted the Church to join the jacobite or Gurgan camp. As they generally say, few can withstand the insecurity in old age-even people who meditate in deep forest. The reasons are obvious.
Now we cannot help any monk of our own church to become a bishop of Malankara Orthodox Church as we have a clealy defined set up for it. So expect a few more Pathrose Ramabans deserting our Church.
As Shaju said the Jacobite camp is worried that there is one more shop for selling 'Red Kuppayam' . So the rate may come down in the bargain. Also, the chances are that some of the ordained ones amy switch allegiance, like horse trading in politics. Another attraction of that Gurgan is all set to become Antiochian patriarch. Patriarch anointed a parallel catholicose and now there is going to be another Patriarch. I believe HB Thomas is clever enough to keep all flock under his tight fist with some 'tricks' . Will it work for all, in all occasions and forever? I doubt.
All this point towards the need for improving the system of selection of bishops. Now we have already started reforms for improvement of selection of Bishops and we could do some good works. Let us boldly take it forward. Let there more Pathros Rambans if the desire for Red Kuppayam is so intense.
It is clearly evident that the relatives (family members) play a crucial role in push for aspiring candidates before and after the ordination. So we should improve this too.
Suggestions: Can we get a document signed by the close relatives that they would, in future and forever, treat the bishop-elect as a bishop for all the church and not a private proerty, that they do have no special role in the activities of the bishop. All the property and power given by Church to the bishop belong to Christ and his bride, the Church. The family would not covet the prperty governed by the bishop for the Chuch.
The bishop-elect shall sign the document that: the whole church is my family and all the Church memebers shall be my family members. So help me God
I hope there could be more suggestions for improving the selction process of bishops.
shaju has forgetten to write one basic thing that the election for bishop in malankara assosication is not completely democratic as he believes. If the election for bishop is in a democratic way then all the aspiring candidate must get an opportunity to get elected. Instaed, every time there is a screening commity who "scrutinise" the candidates "credibility", and the members of the "scru" commitee have been changed on the basis of who should and who shouldn't be selected and also has created a criteria for qualification. If shiju is correct then how much crores have been got for every members of the "scru" commitee to select one candidate? why no uniform criterea for selecting bishop ? Similalry the "selected" candidates must deposit a "some"amount to the Lay trustees "blade bank". So he thinks his churche's practise has been continuing in all ohter churches. It is his problem
Malankara Orthodox Church is the only one who is following some standartds to select a bishop. I think is because of following the culture of Indian society.
Why are we bothered abt Mar Severios Gurgan and all others..how many are following them. People who have faith in Orthodox church will be in the same church until he/she lives here.
We have to understand that we cannot make a perfect selection of Bishops as Christ did in the case o his apostles. we should also realise that one among the apostles which Christ himself slected and taught was a thief who betrayed his own master.
But we should keep on improving the process of selection. I believe, we have been fairly successful in this. I think the recent screening committees played a good role in checking the antecedants of the candidates. We should beliee in the works of the HOLY SPIRIT after doing the best work.
The rules for screening committee need to revised from time to time. Church's democratic process is not like the terms of the election commission of India. I have read that in Germany they have a system for getting the best candidates. We should make the rules strict for the primary selction and only those elegible ones should come as candidates. No one including the relatives, parish, and diocese should be allowed to seek vote for any candiate. The introduction of candiates should done by the church through official media of the church.
The future of indian church is in the hands of the bishops. So we should get only right ones as leaders. The bibel says, there was a revolt against Moses. Someone raised voice that 'others are also eleigible to lead just like Moses'. But God punished all of them. Quality is more important than numbers. So those who want to lead the church should walk in that spirit and prove themselves worthy of it. Others will se the light and they shall be chosen. Some of our best bishops were reluctant to accept the post becasue tehy wanted to continue God's work. Now we find many are seeking the post. It is a tragedy for the church.
Dear Mr Joshy I believe you are a Christian.. Do not make false allegation that the screening committee members took money for selecting the candidates. Also you have alleged that the candidates were forced to deposit amount in Trustee's 'blade' bank. Let me tell you 'Do not sin against th e HOLY SPIRIT for it won't be forgiven.
If the Orthodox Church wanted to take money for appointment of bishops, it would not have made this type of voting by two collegiums.
I heard about the practice of taking moeny in 'some' church, but did not believe it until a ralative of a bishop told me, how much money was paid to whom for his own relative who is now a bishop of that church. The bishop had tried in Orthodox Church but failed to become one as he lost in the election process. He realised that the only way is to appraoch the other church and he was successful.
This is just to supplement what Mr. Shaju Joseph has written.
In recent years a celibate priest who was very actively involved with MGOCSM left his 'robe' and married a non-christian widow and now has a child. Their story with photogrphs appeared in 'Vanitha' recently. He too was disappointed with the church hierarchy for not giving him opportunities for higher 'posts'. For either his good luck or bad luck Moses Gurgan came into the market a bit too late!
When there are murderers and Gundas after us, Eldhose, it becomes a responsibility to protect HH.
In fact the situationis sol alarming that each one member of the Church need protection.
i remember, two years ago I was in Thrikkunnathu seminary. In the morning when Orthodox Church members were entering the police were standing and sittig lazy. Afte that came jacobites.. I heard the police officer talling his policemen to be alert. The officer was telling 'ivanmreya sookshikkandiyathu'.
Dear Mohan, You are right my son. This is exactly what happens when I got to the Seminary Chapel for the service. I can see the policemen on duty having a relaxed smile when he sees our people. One of the police officer remarked to me, do you think, your opposite brothers will ever behave like you all after if at all the unity takes place and he said, I doubt. He further said, every time they come into the church, they abuse you people and curse whereas not once I have heard one amongst you saying so.
This is the testimony of a man who embraced unity alongwith Vayaliparambil Thirumeni in 1958. Unfortunately my younger brother didn't follow me and stood firm with the ideologies of Late Valiya Thirumeni (The one who patronised Vadakkan) and today he is a pentecost paster and he does not have an issue travelling north to south without any Vadakkan culture that was injected in him by the facists. His main issue those days was joining hands with Thekkar will not be good. Today I am happy inspite of he being a pastor of pentecost movement, he no more talks about Vadakkan and Thekkan. Praise the Lord.
Gurgan might soon tun himsself into Patriarch, which is a real threat to HH ZACHA BAVA of Antioch.
Soon after BH Thomas was anointed as a rebel Catholicose there was clamour from some local leaders for anointing somebody in Antioch as a rebel Patriarch. we decided against it saying that "We do not want to give a trouble to Antioch which has lots of other problems."
See now, there is going to be another 'Patriarch of Antioch' as they claim. We did not anoint a duplicate patriarch. See God's hands at work.
If Gurgan becomes a Patriarch, there will be a new 'Catholicose' in India. With his German money Gurgan could buy soem 'churches' the Jacobite 'society' act does not prevent them from going after Gurgan. So a real threat to jacobites exist now. The best option for them is to accept 1934 constitution and become one church. I think jacobites are aware of the new threat which is far more dangerous than 'Supreme Court ruling' Let them have the wisdom to raise the slogan of unity. I belive HH Zacha would take some initive to uphod 1934 constitution and unite all orthodox belivers. Let us pray for peace and unity which is the solution to all these problems.
Mohan, I took a bit of time to glance thru the bull of HH Zakka. They way he has quoted the Bible appears to be that these words belongs to others and not for himself. This is the problem of that typical Arabi culture. When he points one finger at others, he should realise that there are 4 pointing back at him. And they have injected the same into our brothers who are one step ahead. Remember the name of an Hindi movie, 'Bap numberi, Byetta dus numberi'
16 comments:
Shaju Sarine Nammude Punchakkonam Achan Thirakky Nadakkunnundallo. Nerathe Entho Ezhuthiya Vakuppil.
I appreciate that Mr Shaju did a good research on some of the people who lost in the election process in Orthodox Church and later
went on to be ordained as Bishop in the Jacobite Church without any hassle. I think he could do further studies and bring out a
research paper or even a book.
But when we look at the issue from the angle of an old monk, we would sympathise with some of theose people. Our system of
taking care of old people is so bad that even people with children and grand children too feel insecure. Even some of our
metropolitans had suffered in old age. So an old monk thinks that if he could become a bishop he could die in peace. Family and
commoners expect that an unmarried priest is all set to become a bishop. Restrictions and strict procedures have dashed the hope of
many a Ramban.
We cannot entertain anyone who lost a chance to become a bishop in other churches (say Jacobites or Romo-reeth-Syrians or
Gurgan's) with the promise of making him a Bishop of Orthodox church. Let us feel proud that we maintain certain standards for teh
selection of bishops. The situation is different in other churches of Malankara.
Had Pathros Ramban been elected a Bishop of Orthodox Church, some of his own family members in the Society canmp would have
joined the Orthodox Church - so strong is the motivation of turning into a Bishop.
We can expect more people like Pathrose Ramban who deserted the Church to join the jacobite or Gurgan camp. As they generally
say, few can withstand the insecurity in old age-even people who meditate in deep forest. The reasons are obvious.
Now we cannot help any monk of our own church to become a bishop of Malankara Orthodox Church as we have a clealy defined set
up for it. So expect a few more Pathrose Ramabans deserting our Church.
As Shaju said the Jacobite camp is worried that there is one more shop for selling 'Red Kuppayam' . So the rate may come down in
the bargain. Also, the chances are that some of the ordained ones amy switch allegiance, like horse trading in politics. Another
attraction of that Gurgan is all set to become Antiochian patriarch. Patriarch anointed a parallel catholicose and now there is ghoing to
be anotehr Patriarch. I believe HB Thomas is clever enough to keep all flock under his tight fist with some 'tricks' . Will it work for all,
in all occasions and forever? I doubt.
All this point towards the need for improving the system of selection of bishops. Now we have already started reforms for
improvement of selection of Bishops and we could do some good works. Let us boldly take it forward. Let there more Pathros
Rambans if the desire for Red Kuppayam is so intense.
It is clearly evident that the relatives (family members) play a crucial role in push for aspiring candidates before and after the
ordination. So we should improve this too.
Suggestions:
Can we get a document signed by the close relatives that they would, in future and forever, treat the bishop-elect as a bishop for all
the church and not a private proerty, that they do have no special role in the activities of the bishop. All the property and power
given by Church to the bishop belong to Christ and his bride, the Church. The family would not covet the prperty governed by the
bishop for the Chuch.
The bishop-elect shall sign the document that: the whole church is my family and all the Church memebers shall be my family
members. So help me God
I hope there could be more suggestions for improving the selction process of bishops.
Thank you
Jacobite group wants to have Mor Militus and Athanasios exeplled from MOSC. That's why thaey keep this issue alive. And, a few in the MOSC (not sure if it is catholicose designate/West Kandanad severios/manorama), and having some issues with these bishops are helping Jacobites. These persons wounded feelings of H. G Abraham Mar severios without any mercy, forcing him to return to Jacobite group. Whatever happens now in the church is giving a wrong message to those who want to join MOSC. Mor Miitius and Athanasios did everthing ith good intention, but they are facing truobles from all corner. Bad fate, struggling to survive.
In A Thirld world country We Have a congregation. Somtimes back the needs of that cngregationwere presented to our church hierarchy through MANKARA SABHA Magazine,brought to their attention by one of our priest who served there forsometime. The congregation made its stand and reported to our church heirearchy many times that due to changing immigration gproblems and instalbility of employment and Financial problems that country, they would like to get somebody from the congregation to be ordained as priest to serve their needs. The church authority or Our Bishops did not listen to them.The bishops put some negative remarks.Now this congregation is getting service from a catholic Malayalee priest who offer them Holy Mass in catholic rite and other services every 2nd saturday of month freely. From this experience it is clear that the rules and bylaws of our church are for the benefits protection of self interests and existence of certian Bishops who are not caring for their flocks.
"Ponal Po kittum podaa"This is the attitude of our church heirearchy for those who leave orthodox faith and join other churches. MOSC/IOC and The Jacobite are there for Moeny,power and position.as well as for Litigation!
Good comments Shaju!
I appreciate that Mr Shaju did a good research on some of the people who lost in the election process in Orthodox Church and later went on to be ordained as Bishop in the Jacobite Church without any hassle. I think he could do further studies and bring out a research paper or even a book.
But when we look at the issue from the angle of an old monk, we would sympathise with some of theose people. Our system of taking care of old people is so bad that even people with children and grand children too feel insecure. Even some of our metropolitans had suffered in old age. So an old monk thinks that if he could become a bishop he could die in peace. Family and commoners expect that an unmarried priest is all set to become a bishop. Restrictions and strict procedures have dashed the hope of many a Ramban.
We cannot entertain anyone who lost a chance to become a bishop in other churches (say Jacobites or Romo-reeth-Syrians or Gurgan's) with the promise of making him a Bishop of Orthodox church. Let us feel proud that we maintain certain standards for teh selection of bishops. The situation is different in other churches of Malankara.
Had Pathros Ramban been elected a Bishop of Orthodox Church, some of his own family members in the Society canmp would have joined the Orthodox Church - so strong is the motivation of turning into a Bishop.
We can expect more people like Pathrose Ramban who deserted the Church to join the jacobite or Gurgan camp. As they generally say, few can withstand the insecurity in old age-even people who meditate in deep forest. The reasons are obvious.
Now we cannot help any monk of our own church to become a bishop of Malankara Orthodox Church as we have a clealy defined set up for it. So expect a few more Pathrose Ramabans deserting our Church.
As Shaju said the Jacobite camp is worried that there is one more shop for selling 'Red Kuppayam' . So the rate may come down in the bargain. Also, the chances are that some of the ordained ones amy switch allegiance, like horse trading in politics. Another attraction of that Gurgan is all set to become Antiochian patriarch. Patriarch anointed a parallel catholicose and now there is going to be another Patriarch. I believe HB Thomas is clever enough to keep all flock under his tight fist with some 'tricks' . Will it work for all, in all occasions and forever? I doubt.
All this point towards the need for improving the system of selection of bishops. Now we have already started reforms for improvement of selection of Bishops and we could do some good works. Let us boldly take it forward. Let there more Pathros Rambans if the desire for Red Kuppayam is so intense.
It is clearly evident that the relatives (family members) play a crucial role in push for aspiring candidates before and after the ordination. So we should improve this too.
Suggestions:
Can we get a document signed by the close relatives that they would, in future and forever, treat the bishop-elect as a bishop for all the church and not a private proerty, that they do have no special role in the activities of the bishop. All the property and power given by Church to the bishop belong to Christ and his bride, the Church. The family would not covet the prperty governed by the bishop for the Chuch.
The bishop-elect shall sign the document that: the whole church is my family and all the Church memebers shall be my family members. So help me God
I hope there could be more suggestions for improving the selction process of bishops.
Thank you
namukku goorgan thirumeniyeum thirumeni vazhicha malankarayile methrachenmareyum veruthe vidam! avar puthiya sabhayumai munnottu pokatte!sliheeka parambariyaum kaiveppum avakshapedunna orthodoxkarum yakkobakkarum thammil kesum vazhakkum thuderette!pavam vishasikal roghathilum,kleshangalilum mattu peedakalilum jeevikattee.avarku thunayayi CRF gospel teamum pinne adhunika "Swargheeya Virunnukarum" undello! "ponal po kittum poda"!Ithanu nammude sabhayude ippozhathe chinthagethiyum sloganum.
shaju has forgetten to write one basic thing that the election for bishop in malankara assosication is not completely democratic as he believes. If the election for bishop is in a democratic way then all the aspiring candidate must get an opportunity to get elected. Instaed, every time there is a screening commity who "scrutinise" the candidates "credibility", and the members of the "scru" commitee have been changed on the basis of who should and who shouldn't be selected and also has created a criteria for qualification. If shiju is correct then how much crores have been got for every members of the "scru" commitee to select one candidate? why no uniform criterea for selecting bishop ? Similalry the "selected" candidates must deposit a "some"amount to the Lay trustees "blade bank". So he thinks his churche's practise has been continuing in all ohter churches. It is his problem
Malankara Orthodox Church is the only one who is following some standartds to select a bishop. I think is because of following the culture of Indian society.
Why are we bothered abt Mar Severios Gurgan and all others..how many are following them. People who have faith in Orthodox church will be in the same church until he/she lives here.
We have to understand that we cannot make a perfect selection of Bishops as Christ did in the case o his apostles. we should also realise that one among the apostles which Christ himself slected and taught was a thief who betrayed his own master.
But we should keep on improving the process of selection. I believe, we have been fairly successful in this. I think the recent screening committees played a good role in checking the antecedants of the candidates. We should beliee in the works of the HOLY SPIRIT after doing the best work.
The rules for screening committee need to revised from time to time. Church's democratic process is not like the terms of the election commission of India. I have read that in Germany they have a system for getting the best candidates. We should make the rules strict for the primary selction and only those elegible ones should come as candidates. No one including the relatives, parish, and diocese should be allowed to seek vote for any candiate. The introduction of candiates should done by the church through official media of the church.
The future of indian church is in the hands of the bishops. So we should get only right ones as leaders. The bibel says, there was a revolt against Moses. Someone raised voice that 'others are also eleigible to lead just like Moses'. But God punished all of them.
Quality is more important than numbers. So those who want to lead the church should walk in that spirit and prove themselves worthy of it. Others will se the light and they shall be chosen. Some of our best bishops were reluctant to accept the post becasue tehy wanted to continue God's work. Now we find many are seeking the post. It is a tragedy for the church.
Thank you
Dear Mr Joshy
I believe you are a Christian.. Do not make false allegation that the screening committee members took money for selecting the candidates. Also you have alleged that the candidates were forced to deposit amount in Trustee's 'blade' bank. Let me tell you 'Do not sin against th e HOLY SPIRIT for it won't be forgiven.
If the Orthodox Church wanted to take money for appointment of bishops, it would not have made this type of voting by two collegiums.
I heard about the practice of taking moeny in 'some' church, but did not believe it until a ralative of a bishop told me, how much money was paid to whom for his own relative who is now a bishop of that church. The bishop had tried in Orthodox Church but failed to become one as he lost in the election process. He realised that the only way is to appraoch the other church and he was successful.
WE KNOW THAT THE MALANKARA ASSOCIATION HELD WITH HIGH SECURITY TO PROTECT KOTTAYAM CATHOLICOS FROM ORTHADOX PEOPLE
This is just to supplement what Mr. Shaju Joseph has written.
In recent years a celibate priest who was very actively involved with MGOCSM left his 'robe' and married a non-christian widow and now has a child. Their story with photogrphs appeared in 'Vanitha' recently. He too was disappointed with the church hierarchy for not giving him opportunities for higher 'posts'. For either his good luck or bad luck Moses Gurgan came into the market a bit too late!
When there are murderers and Gundas after us, Eldhose, it becomes a responsibility to protect HH.
In fact the situationis sol alarming that each one member of the Church need protection.
i remember, two years ago I was in Thrikkunnathu seminary. In the morning when Orthodox Church members were entering the police were standing and sittig lazy. Afte that came jacobites.. I heard the police officer talling his policemen to be alert. The officer was telling 'ivanmreya sookshikkandiyathu'.
Aranu yadhardha satya viswasikal ennu theliyan adhika aklam ini venda, eldhose...
Dear Mohan,
You are right my son. This is exactly what happens when I got to the Seminary Chapel for the service. I can see the policemen on duty having a relaxed smile when he sees our people. One of the police officer remarked to me, do you think, your opposite brothers will ever behave like you all after if at all the unity takes place and he said, I doubt. He further said, every time they come into the church, they abuse you people and curse whereas not once I have heard one amongst you saying so.
This is the testimony of a man who embraced unity alongwith Vayaliparambil Thirumeni in 1958. Unfortunately my younger brother didn't follow me and stood firm with the ideologies of Late Valiya Thirumeni (The one who patronised Vadakkan) and today he is a pentecost paster and he does not have an issue travelling north to south without any Vadakkan culture that was injected in him by the facists. His main issue those days was joining hands with Thekkar will not be good. Today I am happy inspite of he being a pastor of pentecost movement, he no more talks about Vadakkan and Thekkan. Praise the Lord.
Gurgan might soon tun himsself into Patriarch, which is a real threat to HH ZACHA BAVA of Antioch.
Soon after BH Thomas was anointed as a rebel Catholicose there was clamour from some local leaders for anointing somebody in Antioch as a rebel Patriarch. we decided against it saying that "We do not want to give a trouble to Antioch which has lots of other problems."
See now, there is going to be another 'Patriarch of Antioch' as they claim. We did not anoint a duplicate patriarch. See God's hands at work.
If Gurgan becomes a Patriarch, there will be a new 'Catholicose' in India. With his German money Gurgan could buy soem 'churches' the Jacobite 'society' act does not prevent them from going after Gurgan. So a real threat to jacobites exist now. The best option for them is to accept 1934 constitution and become one church. I think jacobites are aware of the new threat which is far more dangerous than 'Supreme Court ruling' Let them have the wisdom to raise the slogan of unity. I belive HH Zacha would take some initive to uphod 1934 constitution and unite all orthodox belivers. Let us pray for peace and unity which is the solution to all these problems.
Mohan,
I took a bit of time to glance thru the bull of HH Zakka. They way he has quoted the Bible appears to be that these words belongs to others and not for himself. This is the problem of that typical Arabi culture. When he points one finger at others, he should realise that there are 4 pointing back at him. And they have injected the same into our brothers who are one step ahead. Remember the name of an Hindi movie, 'Bap numberi, Byetta dus numberi'
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